So I recently was at the Great American Outdoor Show and was talking to a rep from US Law Shield, who proceeded to $hit talk USCCA. I didn’t care much for their plan, mostly because they don’t offer any civil damages coverage, but it got me thinking that it’s time go over USCCA’s terms of service and explore other options. I had been a member of USCCA for 7 years, but didn’t carry outside the home much until recently. So I called to clarify the coverage, and the rep was very argumentative, talking over me and telling me that I was worried about nothing. When I read him the actual text from the policy (paraphrased below), he had nothing to say:
“Our obligation… to defend the insured… ends: In the event of the “insured’s” “conviction” of any criminal charge(s)…” See Section I, 1, (f), (1), (b)
This is a dealbreaker for me because not only does it clearly mean that if I am convicted, they will not defend me in a civil trial, but there will be no coverage for civil damages as well. I hadn’t even gotten to ask him about the recoupment clause(Section III, I).
Anyway, I cancelled my membership with USCCA and immediately signed on with CCW Safe, who’s terms of service contain no such limitations or exclusions. I expect the firearm I carry to be 110% reliable, and I expect the SD protection plan I choose to be the same. Both have to perform exactly as expected when needed. USCCA’s plan is not a bad plan (better than some others), but it’s not “bullet proof”. USCCA has become a good choice for training, and I am going to miss the magazine, but I signed on for the SD protection, and I am afraid that there are too many holes in their coverage for me to be able to rely on it.
I am very sorry to hear that you canceled your USCCCA Membership and that you did not receive the high-level customer experience over the phone that everyone who reaches out to us deserves. I can assure you this will be looked into and we thank you for bringing this to our attention.
I certainly understand your concern regarding that section of the Self Defense Liability Insurance Policy.I would like to be sure to point out that the initial loss of your case doesn’t necessarily trigger Condition I in the SDLI policy, as it is not necessarily a “Conviction”. Section V Definition C. explains that “Conviction” means the final unappealable entry by a court of an adjudication, judgment, order, or ruling finding a party guilty of a crime. Assuming that there was an appealable issue, losing a case is not the end of a road for the responsibly armed American who faces a tough uphill battle with the legal system.
Nonetheless, I’m happy to hear that you do have a plan in place that works best for you and we are still always here happy to help if there is ever anything that we can do, and I hope to still see you here in the USCCA Community engaging in great conversations! Please always feel welcome to reach out to me here directly if there is anything I can do for you as well!
We are almost at a point that it’s not worth protecting ourselves! We’re being attacked from every angle, the bad guy seems to have the better odds. The DA’s, defense attorneys, judges this administration is on THEIR side! They condone violence and in some cases they are paying for it!
Bad guy never pays for coverage and steals anything he needs. And never questions whether he should shoot or not! There’s a certain freedom to be had as a bad guy!
And I, who legally protect myself is more at risk of serving time than the bad guy. Blue states in particular. You commit murder in NY, you’re free to go, defend yourself in NY and you’re jailed as a pariah.
Maybe we can change a few meanings of words.
Like I wasn’t “protecting” my self, it was a “criminal interdiction”.
As far as the gun is concerned, it wasn’t me, it was the guns fault, so they keep telling us. It took a long time, but I’m finally convinced!
I’m not responsible for the release of the projectile. It was the gun!
It’s not my fault the bad guy ran into the flight path!
The whole system has been derailed. I wouldn’t count on it getting back to normal during my lifetime!
It is illegal for an insurance company to insure an intentional illegal act.
If you commit let’s say murder, and you are convicted, final non-appealable conviction, the insurance company cannot insure that. At that point, the final non appealable conviction, the insurance company (UFCIC) does have the right to seek recovery and recoupment of what they spent on that definitively illegal act.
You are correct, the insurance company will not pay for your civil trial defense and will not pay for the civil damages you are found liable for when it has already been determined that you definitively acted illegally.
It is exactly that, a “self defense” Thing…when you are convicted final non appealable, that was not self defense, that was a crime.
This is why training and education is so important. To avoid the situation in the first place or, if, God forbid, you can’t avoid it, you don’t break the law in doing so (ignorance is no excuse)
Other companies you can add on coverage, you can take away coverage and go off your budget, signing up and doing so is tricky, because when I try to get the similar coverage with benefits USCCA has, I can’t seem to get it.
On top of that USCCA’s policy is in clear layman’s terms and I haven’t seen any policy from the other companies.
People ■■■■ on the USCCA, all the time, over stupid ■■■■.
Seen one Facebook comment saying these guys are anti-gun, they trying to make it to where you have to have insurance and training before you buy a gun - I haven’t seen anywhere USCCA has been politically involved except for 100% reciprocity across all 50 states, and USCCA is an advocate of responsible firearm ownership, and advocates for you to get training, but doesn’t require it, as for the insurance they cover you if you defend yourself, if you have your own funds to defend yourself then don’t get USCCA.
I’ve got a few friends who ■■■■ on USCCA in group chats I’m in saying USCCA is against protecting property- Except, USCCA is not here to cover you for property, they’re here to cover you to protect you, or someone else, from loss of life or limb.
I’ve been a member since January 2019, your benefits have gotten better, I love your program, the training materials are awesome and beneficial.
I agree with you, unfortunately you can actually not have done anything illegal in defending yourself but because some States have a ridiculous amount of “wokeness” and DAs that are not enforcing actual laws and In all honesty are making up their policies as they go. This has lead to more than a few people being found guilty of a crime that they did not commit. Now they are in jail and the people that they paid to protect them from these issues are now actually piling on and looking to get back their money paid for legal services.
Ok, so good luck with that…. And good luck with ANYONE covering you if you’re convicted. That’s the equivalent of expecting your insurance company to build you a new house after you torched your own. There is zero difference.
Bear in mind that to be convicted that has to get past a jury that convicts you, and then final non appealable it likely has to get past other judges besides the one at your initial trial.
A final non-appealable conviction is pretty far past a DA not enforcing actual laws.
But out of curiosity, do you have specific examples of the people convicted final non appealable who didn’t do anything illegal and are getting piled on to pay back?
Nathan,
No. I do not have any real world examples of this, but the language of the policy is very clear. I think the difference between USCCA and other SD Protection plans is that the others are legal service agreements, while USCCA is an insurance policy to pay legal expenses. As such, they may be subject to insurance law and regulations that legal service agreements are not. The worst thing would be to get jammed up and convicted after what you thought was justifiable self-defense. There are 5 required elements needed to establish self defense, and failing any one of those elements can lead to a conviction. You could be sitting in prison while your family is being asked to repay several hundred thousand dollars expended on your failed defense. And then never mind the expense of having to defend a civil suit on your own.
What happens if the Legal Council paid for through the USCCA Insurance recommends you plead guilty to a lesser offense. You complied with council but that’s still a conviction.
For starters…why would your lawyer make that recommendation? Is it because you are guilty of something worse? Rhetorical I suppose. But your lawyer is your lawyer, not anybody elses’s lawyer, and pleading guilty (or not) is your decision.
Admitting that you were guilty and that you did not act in lawful self defense would stop any coverage to that point and potentially result in recovery/recoupment as at that time by your own admission you committed a crime and were not acting in lawful self defense.
Yes, you could be in prison for years with tons of legal expenses if you illegally use force against another person. That is just the way it is, no matter what membership or group you belong to or don’t. This is very important to keep in mind when deciding if something is worth using force let alone lethal force.
See: Shark Tank analogy
This is why you come across so many “No, don’t do that” when people start boasting about how they can legally use lethal force in defense of property. It’s rarely legal and just not worth it. (side tangent I know)
90% of criminal trials DO end in a plea deal. Pleading guilty to a reduced charge IS a conviction, and likely not appealable. Even if you were certain that you acted properly, would you risk a felony conviction and many years in prison if you could plea to a misdemeanor?
Yeah, that and $80/ year savings is why I went with ccwsafe this past year as well. No frills, but I can deal with that. $300/yr for the basic plan, and living in bear country as opposed to SLC, I considered ROI. Black Bear, so we’re chill as the kids say.
In uscca defense, watching a lawyer on iirc Warrior Poet Society, a guy who had worked for uscca then went elsewhere, he mentioned uscca had never lost a case. Being a lawyer, take that as you will, but that was his story, and he had more to gain by not mentioning that.
I don’t know much about CCW safe. With their ‘basic plan’, is there compensatory damages or whatever language to cover is money is owed as a result of a civil trial? No need to answer, just, anyone you are looking at, check on that
No need to answer any of these for anybody regarding anything other than USCCA Membership, but, when shopping around, I like to look at these things first:
*Coverage territory (and does your permit reciprocity factor in to that)
*Limits criminal defense, limits civil defense
*Is it just attorney fees or more like expert witness fees, court costs/taxes, etc
*Does it have to be a firearm or could it be a lawful act of self defense with other weapons or no weapon?
*Can you pick your own attorney?
*Is there a network of attorneys to pick from if you want?
*Is it paid out of pocket with reimbursement, or as incurred
*What are the exclusions?
Ask your advice? Why did you choose CCW Safe over US Law Shield? Do we know if we can purchase two insurances, so that if we do not or cannot use one, we can use the other? Is that allowed?
On customer service, I’d be smart to never underestimate it. I’m all for checking if management can forgive, retrain and make amends with customers. My teacher used to often say “Hire on personality, as you cannot train ‘personality’, but you can train on knowledge and skills”.
Just renewed our coverage with USCCA tonight
the chat help was excellent in getting it done
they have been more than helpful with getting our
church security team set up
Burdo,
Us Law Shield looked good at first, but they use a cafeteria model, where everything is optional (spouse coverage, multi-state coverage, bail bond coverage, others). The big turnoff to me was that they do not offer an option to include civil liability at all. CCW Safe covered everything, soup to nuts in their Ultimate plan, with no limits for defense and expert witnesses. The only option I could add is civil liability for my wife, which I passed on, since she doesn’t carry outside the home.
