Coverage and Recoupment

[Ramsey]

Hi, I am new to the forum and the whole concept of self defense insurance, I did my own research but couldn’t find answers to these questions. Forgive me if they are stupid question:

1. After seeing some video and then reading through the policy, I saw the possibility of recoupment. It seems like it legally had to be written into the policy but its not enforced. Which brings me to wonder in how many cases has (roughly speaking) Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company (UFCIC) attempted to recoup money from an insured that conviction/guilty plea?

2. Trying to wrap my head around the limits of coverage. If someone pushes you, you push them back (no weapons involved) then they try to press charges for assault and battery, is that covered? In simple terms, at what degree of escalation does the self defense insurance kick in?

Thanks for your help!

[BRUCE26]

@Ramsey Welcome to our community, we are glad to have you.
If you have questions about the policy call USCCA at 800-674-9779 24-7-365 friendly help.

[Karacal]

Hello and welcome @Ramsey

[Mike164]

Being from the martial arts world I asked that specific question. Does this policy cover hand to hand self defense. I got this light none comital answer, The policy covers self defense situations. If you get a better answer from Delta let us know.

[Ray95]

Had the same question at the seminar/sales pitch prior to joining and was told martial arts was covered if used in self defense.

[Zavier_D]

Was the seminar at the Delta Defense campus? Not disputing it, but short of it being from an actual employee I do not know if I would count on it.

The USCCA has subcontractors who do sales on an area by area basis and I’ve heard some serious mistakes made regarding USCCA coverage at those seminars. I belong to several 2A advocacy groups and I’ve sat through a couple of them.

Best bet is to call the USCCA number.

As far as recoupment, if you are found guilty or take a plea deal, in an imperfect self defense. The insurance company can seek recoupment.

@Enzo_T is a former employee he can probably give a better answer will tag mods as well.

@moderators

@Tim.D_USCCA

[RAYMOND45]

Welcome and there are no stupid questions

[RAYMOND45]

Welcome

[Nathan57]

1. Correct that is has to be there because it is not legal for the insurance company (universal fire and casualty insurance company) to insure and cover an intentional criminal act. There is no public information on how many times or if at all the recovery and recoupment clause has been pursued. According to the policy issued to the USCCA, the UFCIC has the right to seek recovery and recoupment (not that they necessarily will, but they could) following a final non-appealable guilty verdict or a plea deal which is an admission of a crime and not lawful self defense.

2. Potentially covered. That aspect of membership is for any lawful act of self defense not otherwise excluded, which could potentially be pushing someone. In simple terms, any degree of escalation that qualifies as an act of self defense you have the potential for coverage.

[Ray95]

It was held at the range I belong to in Scottsdale AZ. There were two people representing USCCA, one giving a talk on concealed carry the other was signing people up. I got the impression the one taking orders was an employee of Delta Defense. Her email has her as “Account Executive-Arizona, Delta Defense, LLC”.

I didn’t join that night, I did some research first and compared what I had and what USCCA offered. Needless to say, USCCA came out on top

[Forensic_Wow]

All I have to say is you better be in the damn right if you have to defend yourself.

Having the insurance company come after you is the least of your worries.

[Zavier_D]

I guess what I am trying to say is at the State level, alot of Delta Defense employees are actually subcontractors and thus have a financial incentive to say something that they are not 100% correct on. So it’s in your best interest to just call the USCCA and ask them policy questions or to call the Insurer.

(“UFCIC”), a member of Universal Shield Insurance Group, Inc. (“USIG”). UFCIC issued Self-Defense Liability Policy No. --******-** (the “Policy”) to the United States Concealed Carry Association, Inc. (“USCCA”).

Above is the policy that USCCA carries it’s members as additional insured.

I’m being very precise in what I am trying to communicate. As I do not want to confuse.

So I called and asked seeing as this could get off course.

Any item that you can legally use for self defense is covered. The exact analogy was…

1. If you used Mace to defend yourself. Covered
2. If you used Wasp spray (which is illegal to use) Not Covered. Hope that clarifies the issue for you.

Anyone who has a wtf! About the comparison, please feel free to communicate with the USCCA about what you can use to save your life. I think it’s stupid but it’s their policy.

I guess you have to make sure you pick the right type of tool to defend yourself with.

[Nathan57]

Everyone who sells USCCA memberships, including the representatives that come to/after classes, is a Delta Defense employee and is property and casualty insurance licensed in the state where it takes place/in the state where the member (or prospect) resides (in person or over the phone)

You could potentially have a covered act of self defense using wasp spray. I think you have seen the USCCA/Tom Grieve ask an attorney episode talking about it. You won’t likely find anybody who recommends planning to use wasp spray for self defense. It could potentially (I am not a lawyer) be considered lethal force, and could make things a lot more complicated that need be. Less lethal self defense tool? Carry and use pepper spray. Lethal force self defense? Firearm is best if possible, generally.

Wasp Spray for Self Defense? : Ask An Attorney [LIVE with Tom Grieve and Kevin Michalowski]

[Zavier_D]

Hmmm I guess things have changed. I know they use subcontractors (someone on the forum is one, and I called them today and asked point blank). Unless they count outside salespeople that only receive a commission if they make a sale an employee. If they do that they are going to get sued as they have to ensure they are making a minimum of the minimum wage. Which can be done but is not being done for this person. So, I’m curious now.

Also the specific item was wasp spray and they sent me an email and a video. Saying that the membership would not cover that self defense and gave a couple of other instances as well.

Wasp Spray for Self Defense? : Ask An Attorney [LIVE with Tom Grieve and...

[Zavier_D]

@Enzo_T

Insurance companies don’t come after you, lawyers do.

That’s a reach, brother man. Lawyers don’t come after you (usually) but the Insurance Company sure sent the lawyers to come after you.

[Zavier_D]

@Enzo_T

USCCA maintains a group called Outside Sales and they are the ones that attend gun classes and present the membership. As I mentioned they are trained throughly, have to be P&C licensed and their presentations are recorded and submitted to legal for review.

The forum goer here does not have a USCCA badge. I’ve asked them to pop on. Will continue with you in P.M.

@Enzo_T

WASP spray I’ll look over the video because while it’s unsound to purposefully use it for tactical reasons and it will look bad for you legally to habitually carry and then use it for SD purposes, there is nothing in Federal Law that I know of prohibiting you from using is as a SD weapon.

I am going off of the 2 phone calls I made to the USCCA l made last night. I am interested as to their answer on this. I’m waiting on a callback from a Supervisor.

@Enzo_T

They are not “coming after you”. They just will not pay the benefits which you are not entitled to.

But this is usually when dishonest people will find dishonest lawyers and sue the insurance company.

The conversation here is about Recoupment (which is the recovery of a benefit that’s already been paid). I’m not dishonest and I had 0 clue that if I used Wasp Spray that it would invalidate my Self Defense claim with regards to my membership benefits with the USCCA. If I was in a SD situation, the actions I have trained myself and family is to…

Step 1) Survive the Self Defense incident (not trying to be funny). Go to

Step 2) Call 911. Go to.

Step 3) Call the USCCA. Who by my specific instructions is to call my specific attorney of record and have him alerted that I need his service. Upon his receipt of said call, the meter starts running as far as money owed to him.
I know exactly how Insurance Companies work. As I worked as a Fraud Investigator for a fairly large one. Granted, this was 30+ years ago.

Step 4) Blah Blah and so on.

I am not talking about committing a fraud. I am talking very specifically about the USCCA, the 2 very specific phone calls I made to the USCCA, asking very specifically about a Self Defense claim involving Wasp Spray. The specific answer I got, was that, even if I was found to have acted in Self Defense. That my membership benefit would be denied. I’m not thrilled with that answer, so I am awaiting a call back from a supervisor.

Edit. I just spoke with a supervisor. The long answer was… Depends. There is a generalized Federal law about not using pesticide as a weapon against people. But nothing that said specifically about Wasp Spray. I have a Mace Gel and a Bear spray that I use.

I asked about Bear Spray (sorry Yogi and Boo Boo)… Depends.

I even asked about disarming an attacker who has an NFA item and using it against them… Depends.

I got a lot of, dance around, dance around, and being told to be prepared by having the right self defense tools with me.

Hope this helped.

So, as I suspected, it depends is the definitive answers.

[Nathan57]

@Enzo_T

As for the WASP spray I’ll look over the video because while it’s unsound to purposefully use it for tactical reasons and it will look bad for you legally to habitually carry and then use it for SD purposes, there is nothing in Federal Law that I know of prohibiting you from using is as a SD weapon so there is no reason the insurance company would negate coverage. But I’ll research it for my own edification.

This is what I am most interested in. I can’t myself (I am NOT a lawyer, though) find this law. The labels seems to indicate it as such (federally prohibited)…is it possibly because there is a federal law/reg about not using pesticides against people or something that doesn’t say “wasp spray” but says a category of chemical of which wasp spray is an example?

[Zavier_D]

@Enzo_T

In case you missed the edit.

@Zavier_D

I just spoke with a supervisor. The long answer was… Depends. There is a generalized Federal law about not using pesticide as a weapon against people. But nothing that said specifically about Wasp Spray. I have a Mace Gel and a Bear spray that I use.

I asked about Bear Spray (sorry Yogi and Boo Boo)… Depends.

I even asked about disarming an attacker who has an NFA item and using it against them… Depends.

I got a lot of, dance around, dance around, and being told to be prepared by having the right self defense tools with me.

Hope this helped.

So, as I suspected, it depends is the definitive answers.

[Ramsey]

I got the ANSWERS! Spoke to a USCCA agent then a UFCIC agent and here is what I learned, even asked your wasp spray question

1. They have never attempted recoupment thus far. Which explains why I have never heard of them actually doing it. They dont provide coverage past the first conviction, you are responsible for fighting your own appeals but they will consider reimbursing you if you appeal successfully. No definitive answer, they say it depends case by case
2. It depends on if there is a justifiable belief there was a risk of serious bodily injury. Play it safe and call, so they can decide if it falls within coverage
3. Wasp spray. It depends on the context. If you in your garage and get attack and it was in reach, then yes. But if you walking your dog and someone attacks and you carrying wasp spray with you, probably not

[Nathan57]

I am rather curious about the answer you got to #1, RE: Appeals. Who specifically gave you that answer? Like company/number called/first name if you can?