Except, all the things that would set off a metal detector that people bring to church. We know criminals and their cohorts come and go daily from courthouses. We don’t want church goers to feel like that. Randomly armed members is the way to go for churches. Maybe they are security. Maybe they are the sound guy. Maybe they are in the choir. Maybe it’s the pastor himself. Or, all of the above.
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I agree wholeheartedly that we don’t & never want congregants to feel like a criminal. My concern was dozens of random concealed carriers in a relatively confined space. There was a meeting about church security years ago which LEOs came to speak with our church. The officer asked how many of you are lawful concealed carriers? No exaggeration… Hundreds of brothers & sisters raised their hands… Folk I didn’t even expect. Out of the 4500 + membership, I would say at least 10% are potentially carrying. I considered that maybe randomly armed congregants won’t the best thing for us. That’s the context of my statement earlier. 
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I follow you. I believe that’s where those of us that encourage more training than just a basic ccw licensing would be recommended. The man that stopped this event, Jack, said he had to wait for a clear shot. He knew his target, and what was beyond, and in between. That vigilance might have prevented a hit to a friendly.
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I fully and whole heartedly support training and then more training to become competent.
However caution in advocacy for this should be used in that the left is already dismissing this as a “civilian that was carrying” and saying that Jack was a well trained former LEO and of course he was able to stop the shooter, and that the all of the other CCW’s in the church were ineffective and a danger to the congregation.
While the practice and training were critical in events like this (stopping a threat in a public area with people around) remember there are 100’s of thousands of times a year where a CCW stops a threat and has had minimal if any training.
So lets continue to advocate training (it’s very important) but lets not give the anti-2A side yet another tool for barrier to entry in owning/carrying a gun for defense (i.e. before you can carry you must take a 16hr course, with 8hrs of practical live fire training and pass a shooting qualification; the $1000 to be paid out of your pocket and requires annual recertification at $400).
Just a thought.
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You are so right!
I’ve seen a disaster at my church!
The civilian security guard tackled a man that was “drunk” approaching the altar for salvation and reached into his pocket for the mouth wash bottle containing liqueur (my guess he wanted to give it
and give his life to God ).
Although I was not nor ever security, I’m really close to the LEOS that are on the team and was church staff. It was embarrassing. Not to mention, I never saw that fellow again.
@Jim14
While it is hard to secure the threat outside the doors the entry points can be limited by not having hand latches on the outside or rear and side doors. They don’t have to be locked and can have panic bars on the inside. Sure it is sad things have gone that far but limiting entry to as few points as possible makes security’s job a bit easier.
Second point might be team meetings to discuss perceived known threats . In the case we are discussing such a meeting might have cautioned security to the suspects mental condition before hand and because of the coat and hidden weapon plus a disguise given them just cause to confront him before entry.
We talk constantly about situational awareness and it turns out this was a case where that would have been reason enough to stop the suspect well before he got to the door. It isn’t easy to try and second guess the team itself and there is no promise they would have been successful. This particular man was known to the staff and some of the members. Some of his problems had materialized before this day and his actions were strange enough to risk confrontation in my opinion. I will not fault them for not confronting him because we are on new ground here with these types of attacks. Still there were signs that should have moved the whole team into condition orange or even red when the disguise was considered.
My answer may not have proven any more effective than the one used by the church team. It is just a suggestion of how I would run the situation through a team meeting.
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I’m very interested to find out. I was going to recommend that our Church obtain USCCA memberships for our security team.
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@Jim14, I’ll be really interested in the answers you get. We have an “unofficial” team that trains together and that only a couple of folks know about. We’re all USCCA members, and we’re less worried for ourselves as individuals than we are about increasing liability for our house of worship. In this event, no bystanders were hurt, but if a shot or two had gone awry, could the fact that officials know about us make the institution liable? Would a more official team increase or decrease exposure?
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@JTS we don’t say if anyone is or isn’t a USCCA member when they’ve been involved in a self-defense incident.
We do have a group rate available for memberships. I’m reaching out to our group specialist to see if she wants me to post her info in here or she may jump into the Community to answer your questions here. 
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I’m working getting a new link since we’re back in the office today (I’m in with lots of cold medicine - LOVE the gift of head colds I get every holiday. 
)
As soon as I get the link I’ll update the first post in this thread as well as post it at the end. Thanks for your support everyone!
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Military Arms channel had a thought about the timing of the attack. Apparently the church was live streaming the service. There was some thoughts that the attack may have been timed so the church would live stream the violence. Should some thought be given to changing how the service is shared on the internet so it is not a public stage for an attack?
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My condolences to the families who lost their loved ones and to the evil doer o well. But what I wanted to say for all of the churches who have a security team that front door is your first line of defense ushers should have radios Communication is huge.
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Copy that sir…
Welcome to the community Amaranto!
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The way the left screams about separation of church and state, they should mind their business , and keep separate in this instance. It is none of their concern what goes on in a church. In my church, EVERY man over the age of 21 carries, including the pastor. I mentioned to his son the other day that if something happened, that “It would be awfully loud.” He simply smiled. In my old church, the pastor told me that if anybody had a gun he would throw them out, that God would protect them. I wasn’t going to argue, so I left. I wanted to tell him that God’s way of protecting the church was having me there with my gun, but I knew he wouldn’t listen, so I just went away. It was easier.
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You can’t teach people who aren’t willing to learn. I hope he learns before it costs the someone else’s life in his church… chances are he won’t be the one who takes the harm for his unwillingness to shift his view.
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I am reminded of a story (parable?) I use for an example to these types of situations. I don’t recall where I first heard it, I’ve butchered it over the years, and there’s probably similar versions of this…
A guy goes to the beach and goes swimming and gets swept out by a current. He grows tired of swimming and no one knows he’s out there and he feels he’s going to drown. So he prays and knows that God will save him. Shortly after a fisherman on a boat wanders by and sees him and offers help, but he says no thanks God will save me. Shortly after that a Coast Guard helicopter flies by and sees him and offers to throw him a flotation ring, but he says no thanks God will save me. Shortly after that, as his strength is fading some dolphins find him and offer to push him back to shore, but he says no thanks God will save me. Right before he goes under a blue whale comes along and offers to help him, but he says no thanks God will save me. Well then he drowns. When he gets to heaven he says God where were you I was waiting for you to come and save me. God says, you idiot I sent you a fisherman, the Coast Guard, a pack of dolphins, and a whale. A WHALE!
The point being that even with God’s help, you still have a responsibility to do something to survive.
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An update, my church is now installing video cameras around the building inside and out. Getting walkie talkies for our security team with ear pieces. The AV guy will be watching the monitors and inform the team about suspicious behavior. AND we will rotate one of the team doing perimeter checks.
The last church I went to didn’t want to have any security. There was NO cover and only one way in or out. So basically we were all sitting ducks. Not to mention, that church reminded me of a tent revival and I’m not into that sort of thing.
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We don’t need to debate the preferences of any soft target be it a church or office or dance club. They exist and predators will gravitate towards them. Most of us in this forum have already made the decision that we must protect ourselves or in some cases are willing to protect our loved ones.
It is a shame our places of religion have had to become armed camps but it is that or suffer mass extermination. I now live in a state where a church would have to take an active part of restricting the congregation from protecting themselves with posted signs not allowing members to carry. To me this just might be a deal breaker. I believe in the quote, “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” and I don’t care who said it first.
If some are content to subject themselves to the whims of the bad and trust to luck or even divine providence that is fine but for me and mine I would rather not go out with a whimper but if I have to it would be with a bang. Just my opinion.
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I agree it was not a soft target. He did in fact target the church because he perceived it to be a soft target. A few situations like this will convince the shooters that a church is not a soft target. Hope everyone has a wonderful week.