Are those questions serious? 
All the information is already known by FFL. Penalty? You donât get your first gun if you donât attend the training.
Simple like that.
1 Like
They are very serious questions, as serious as whether or not you are allowed to have a gun in your own home.
If something is going to mandated/written into law, that and more is essential.
How does the FFL already know if you are a first time gun owner? I only see that happening if there is a national registry of gun owners and when you take the ânew gun ownerâ training, you get entered into the national registry and the FFL must verify that you are registered there before they transfer you a gun.
Furthermore, for this to be effective, it seems that private party sales would be illegal unless there was a requirement that all private parties have access to the national registry such that they can run potential buyers/recipients to make sure they have registered themselves with the federal government as approved gun owners first.
If there is another way this could work beyond a national registry of gun owners, Iâm all ears (not that the other way would be anything other than an infringement, but, Iâm curious how it might work other than the registry)
And yes, punishment must be statedâŠlaws only work if they have repercussions for violation. Letâs say a first time gun owner gets their gun via private sale and never took the mandated training, now they are a gun owner without the government training and approvalâŠwhat would the penalty be?
5 Likes
Sounds about the same as a CCW class! I have no idea how to make training mandatory but when I went to my CCW class there were people that have never fired a gun in their life. We went through the laws and such concerning CCW and a few different scenarios to determine whether to shoot or not and went to the range. The class required you to shoot their guns and everyone got a .22 semi auto to shoot. I was the third person to shoot and just watched the others do their shooting. Some barely made it even though they had more shells in the gun than were needed to qualify. We came back in to take the test and I answered all the questions and some of the other people had questions about the questions. Basically, the instructor gave them the answer and everyone passed. Knowing I had been firing a gun since I was 6 years old, I was happy. Then, I thought about the three guys that knew absolutely nothing about firearms talking about what gun they were going to get. I was happy again because none of them lived near me. I agree that anyone should be able to own a firearm but training would be nice because there are well intentioned people out there that will not get any training that may cause the rest of us to have more problems because of it.
5 Likes
One of the problems with training is that it mandates getting a government permission slip and proving that an individual is âworthyâ (i.e., a license) as a prerequisite to exercising a fundamental individual right. Imagine being required to pass a test as a prerequisite to engaging in free speech.
When government mandates training, thatâs just a mechanism for denying people the right to keep and bear arms by arguing âOh, weâre keeping people safe.â It has not been that long ago when government banned firearms possession among blacks because racist local governments concluded that blacks owning firearms would be dangerous.
3 Likes
DId you know how to shoot well when you were 6-years old? Just because a person learning how to shoot isnât as accurate as you, should he/she not be âallowedâ to shoot? What if the âtestâ was one you could not pass? Would you still be happy? Or is it only because you were able to pass the âtestâ. Self-defense is a life-long journey. As with any skill, some are better. Look at drivers on our roads, they passed tests, too.
Iâve taught adults that had never had exposure to firearms as children. One fact you are missing is that these people are at least taking the time to learn. Likely, if they are getting a CC permit/license, they understand the responsibilities of ownership.
Just because you have the permit/license, does not mean you will carry. The ones I taught did not carry until they thought they had the skills and experience necessary, but they had the permit. I am far more concerned about drivers on the road, every time I travel I avoid at least several dangerous situations, such as, very often, vehicles moving into the lane I am in while I am right next to them. Since COVID lockdowns, my daily commute got far more dangerous. Thankfully, I recently retired, so I have less exposure to that.
Those that carry are only a potential risk if they draw and fire in public. How often have you done that? How often do you drive?
3 Likes
As Chicagoland citizen Iâd ask⊠âisnât this a true statement?â 
1 Like
No, but I also wasnât allowed to carry when I was six and I was being taught the safe way to do it. I didnât say anyone shouldnât be allowed to shoot but I do wish they were better trained. My first lesson was how to carry a rifle when walking to the sand pit we shot at. I was taught never to point a gun at anything but a target and that was when I was told I could at that age.
I am sure that many people do get training but, I would bet there are also plenty that donât. These guys could have gotten training before getting their CCW but they didnât so why would you expect them to afterwards. They new that a shooting qualification was part of the class. They have what they wanted at the time, a CCW. And anybody here knows that a CCW does not mean that you have any knowledge about guns and that was very clear at the class.
Your last statement is totally incorrect. If they havenât had any training or even if they did, that gun could be fired from anywhere, including their own home or yard, and they could be injured or their neighbors could be injured because they were playing with their new toy without understanding what it could do. I donât care if it is training from your Dad, older brother, or an instructor but I believe people should have some training prior to slapping that gun in their pants and heading out to their activities. I have no idea what driving has to do with this but, I have seen several articles about people getting shot for cutting someone else off on the highway. Is that how driving ties into this conversation?
2 Likes
I agree that it can be looked at that way. Like I said, I have no idea how to make training mandatory but I do believe training is necessary. I donât really care who does the training but I would prefer that it be the correct training. I know all the arguments about free speech and all that but it is still limited by law. The 2nd amendment gives us a right that a lot of countries donât have but, I also believe that with that right there comes a great responsibility and the responsibility is what is going to keep us free.
4 Likes
You know that as a fact that they know nothing about firearm safety and that they will be carrying before getting further training? DIdnât they just go through a class, just as you did? Maybe they wanted to learn firearm safety, and the class should have, at minimum, taught that - kind of like hunter safety training. You are making assumptions without any facts.
Just because you fired a gun as a kid doesnât mean you will follow the golden rules as an adult. If that were true, thereâd be no crime and need for self-defense.
And were those the same people that were at your class? Not likely. People do stupid things. It doesnât mean they didnât know any better, nor the law.
I noticed you did not answer my questions, though. How many times have you used your firearm in public to stop a threat? As evidenced by police use of force, wouldnât you, too, be putting innocents at risk when you use a firearm in public? Somehow you are just better than all of us, or just better than some?
Again, I stated everyone has different skill levels and competencies. We strive to be the best we can be. If the government decided your skill set was not good enough to âallowâ you to carry, you would just sell your firearms and go away?
These people taking training classes know they need training and are doing what they can to learn. You are not happy because they arenât as good at shooting as you. You likely are not as good as others at shooting. Who gets to decide the âproperâ level of competency to âallowâ them to defend themselves? Thankfully not you.
You could have also offered to help them learn by taking them to a range. But better to complain than do something about it. When I am at the range and see new shooters, I will ask if they want help. Most accept the help. Be a good steward to the firearm community.
1 Like
So are you. I did listen to them talking about what they were going to do though, and I saw them handling the firearm, that is more knowledge than you have about the situation and I thought they needed much more and I have never had any âformal trainingâ like a firearms instructor would give.
I didnât know that me being able to shoot a gun would stop all this. I donât know if I can handle all this given power. But, you are right, there is no telling how anyone is going to turn out, even you.
1 Like
My âassumptionsâ were based on what you stated. Yours are based on what you believe they will do and are thinking - totally different. I was, apparently, not clear enough for you to understand my point. âTrainingâ does not mean that you will do the right thing - obey the law and follow the golden rules - nor be able to perform under stress. It also does not make you better than anyone else, except in what you were taught. Presuming these people wonât get additional training, when you were in the same class, is just a completely invalid statement, as you cannot know what these people will do.
Are you likely to get more training in the future? Why would they not. too? How would mandating more training help? Other than expensing some people out of their rights. What if the costs became too prohibitive for you, too? Would that be a good thing? I might agree, if it werenât against our inalienable RKBA.
3 Likes
I used one when I was 6 or 7. That was to stop a guy that was trying to break into our house. I didnât shoot him but he stopped and my older brother who was chasing him grabbed him when he stopped. So, I have used a firearm for defense but it was long ago and I didnât know what I was doing except trying to help my brother.
I didnât bring driving into this conversation and didnât say who had done it. I said that driving a car isnât a factor in this conversation. The fact is these guys came to the class and while we were standing outside they all said they hadnât ever fired a gun. One of the three was shaking like a leaf when he pick the firearm up off the table. That is probably why he couldnât aim the gun besides his inexperience. These guys were not taking training. The were getting their CCW certification. There is a big difference.
Yep, I could have offered but at the time my wife was dying of cancer and I needed the CCW to taker her to a good hospital in a bad area because I was going to have to sleep in my truck. So get off your high horse. They could also have gone to the range themselves and hired an instructor to teach them.
3 Likes
My initial point corroberated.
Yet, you believe they will not get more training? Did they state that? You didnât state they did, so one would have assume they did not. I did not state that the training they received was firearm training. Did the class teach anything or was the trainer silent the entire time?
Which, by law, is training.
You did not care enough. Or even suggest a local range that teaches classes.
And you know for a fact that they will not be doing that? By your own admission, they did not state that they werenât. You just assume the worst in people.
Again, what if your skills werenât good enough for whatever criteria the government decides on, or the costs and time, since you âhadâ to get that license, made it prohibitive for you? Would still agree that that training, time and cost is necessary? You are okay with it because you had the limited skill level and money needed, as they apparently did, too, but you are upset that they have the inalienable RKBA âallowedâ by your state laws that also âallowedâ you, too.
1 Like
The assumptions were made because of what I heard. I know that training doesnât guarantee anything except that you have or have been presented more knowledge than you had before the training. It doesnât mean you will do the right thing, but it does mean that someone has taught you what the right thing is.
I hope to be getting more training. I have been looking around for the last few weeks trying to decide what it is I want. If the price is too high, then I save for it.
And do you agree that those rights come with responsibility? I do.
3 Likes
Yeah, maybe there is a âbalanceâ somewhere. IDK.
If course, all the training in the word will not prevent accidents 100% of the time, no guarantees. But would it help mitigate accidents/unwanted outcomes? I think so, seems helpful. JIMHO.
3 Likes
Interesting post. Helpful to think about.
I admit when I go to the range, I must be very mindful, last thing I want it to hurt myself, or someone else, and would not want someone there to accidentally shoot me or my loved one I bring with me.
Even at home, such as when handling or cleaning, we are all dealing with a dangerous weapon. Needless to say, alcohol and firearms do not mix, as with driving.
Then thereâs outdoor, CCW, carrying in a actual sentinel SD event, would not want to be a bystander in the line of fire, because when that cartridge misses the real criminal assailant, I donât wanna be in the way.
Think about this: No education or training whatsoever, on an already newbie âownerâ. And Iâm no expert and far from perfect. Iâve been personally involved in an accident.
Scares me. Life changing " _ _ _ _ ".
5 Likes
The 2nd Amendment does not create the right to keep and bear arms but restricts government actions that infringe on that right, which is a natural law right, not a right created by government.
4 Likes
In general your posts piss me off and I do consider you a troll.
Occasionally you post something that makes sense!
6 Likes
Obviously, as did those others getting the training they did, just like you. You seem to fail at understanding my point, though. You harp on your belief because you learned as a child, and therefore are âallowedâ by right of passage to be armed, denying those that are learning as adults.
My point being that mandating training requires that there is certain knowledge and skills required. Who gets to decide what level is necessary. You appear to believe the necessary level is your skill level. Ironically, you claimed that as a 6-year you only handled firearms under supervision, presumably you believed that you did not have the level of skill and knowledge of laws to carry by yourself. You then related that you brandished a firearm at someone as that same young child. Did you know the laws about brandishing, and lethal use of force as that same-said child? Knowingly breaking at least those same two laws as same-said child. Also many states bar said-same child from even touching a fiream, loaded or not, though probably not when you were a child.
You also claimed the only time you brandished a firearm was when you were 6 or 7 years old. But you claim you âhadâ to get that CC permit/license to take your wife to the hospital. Since you did not use that firearm in self-defense or in protection of you wife, you did not have âneedâ for the permit/license, you only âwantedâ it, and the law provided an easy means for you to be âallowedâ to carry it. Though, again, some states bar firearms in hospitals, too.
You stated you do want additional training, but would save for it, if you couldnât afford it. What if the cost to obtain the permit/license was so prohibitive that you could not âsave for itâ and the skill level beyond your abilities, would you still agree with mandatory training? This is the box lower-income people are put in. Pay rent, utilies, food, etc., or purchase a firearm, pay for training, permit/license, etc.?
2 Likes
No, I just think that everyone should have a level of training so that they absolutely know what a firearm can do if you are not careful. Like I said, there are plenty of people that do get training but, there are also people that donât and they can cause problems for all of us. I didnât say, I wanted govt. mandatory training, I said I didnât care if it was their Dad, brothers, friends or instructors. I just want people to have some kind of knowledge or proficiency with a firearm before carrying it. Iâm not denying anyone anything, just saying that it is best in my opinion. Safety is a real thing and I think that is the first thing.
As far as the attempted robbery goes, it was my job to get the gun and take it to my brother. Since he wasnât in the back yard, I went to the front and here the guy comes running straight at me. I didnât brandish the firearm at all, I pointed it straight at him and he stopped. My brother grabbed him a few seconds later.
Blockquote
As far as my wife goes, I think I stated that I would probably have to sleep in my truck and that was what I needed it for because the area was a bad area. I have lived there and I know! So yes, at the time, I needed it, now I want it. We have always had open carry in our state and it costs nothing if someone wants to do it that way and I would still advocate for some kind of training. Cuts down on a lot of costs, I prefer not to. I know how it is to be poor, that is why we had guns when I was little. You had to have protection where I lived or loose whatever someone else wanted to steal, possibly because they were poor. You will never change my mind about someone having enough training to be safe with a firearm so I donât think we will ever agree.
As far as the formatting, my quote button is not working like I thought it did and I donât have time to figure out why. So I donât know what my answer will look like.
2 Likes