Why Hate on PCCs?

Tied up right now, but I will get back and would like to discuss a little later

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Might.

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OK, I am back … if we consider 9mm muzzle velocities in various lengths of barrels we see that going from a 4" handgun barrel to a 16" PCC barrel, Federal 124 grain Hydra-Shok exits at 1060 fps and 1243 fps respectively, or 310 vs. 425 ft-lbs. BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results

In other words, going from a 4" barrel to a 16" barrel picks up 183 fps for that particular ammo. Maybe I am wrong, but I consider something like the CZ Scorpion with a 7-3/4" barrel to be a PCC. In that case the velocity is 1180 fps (383 ft-lbs), well within the realm of a Remington 124 grain Golden Sabre +P shot from a 3-1/2" barrel ( Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data (luckygunner.com) ).

I have shot my friend’s 9mm CZ Scorpion with a red dot and I have to admit it is super easy to hit anything within 25 yards very quickly. Because of that, I believe a person that does not train very often has a better chance of hitting their target with the Scorpion vs. a pistol. Hitting your target is the number one way to reduce penetration. But, I don’t know how significant the penetration is affected should a person miss their target with 183 fps/17% extra at the muzzle.

I need to read what I just wrote to be sure it makes sense, but it won’t hurt my feelings if anyone points out and clarifies glaring errors :grinning:

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What about using frags? Wouldn’t that be a good option.

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I am sorry, I don’t know enough to make an informed comment.

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What is a “frag”? I have a mental picture of a 40mm munition, but this can’t be what you mean.

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Ammo that fragments when hitting a hard surface

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Good post,

What would be the advantage of a PCC over an AR though?

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From what I’ve read, the PCC as well as a pistol is going to have more penetration, but an AR in 5.56/.223 is going to be a LOT louder :grinning:

I’ve linked this before and still a good objective comparison: [Study] Home Defense Overpenetration: Shotgun, Handgun, Rifle - Pew Pew Tactical

So, choose your poison.

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1st don’t be sorry. You’re a smart man & have some background. I would guess you understand the concept so under certain conditions it sounds workable to me. So your best guess? Read somewhere it was good indoors using 223. Thought was faster bullet easier to fragment

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Frangible ammo.

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This post may belong under Ammo shortage any tips @Robert401.

Please bear with me - I’m trying to do a Readers Digest Condensed Version of all of the above. I’m certain that I’ll miss something.

Let’s assume that the ammo being discussed is 9mm as in @Gary_H chart above. I’m leaving Full Metal Jacketed bullets out of the equation.
While a PCC will definitely produce higher velocity than a pistol, that velocity does not necessarily translate to increased penetration. This is where bullet design comes into play. Ballistic science books are deeply involved with Physics that we don’t really want to delve into here.

In general, I said “in general”, a pistol caliber bullet will scrub off considerably more velocity than a rifle round after passing through its first obstacle, if it passes through at all.
This should, in theory, make it safer than any rifle round for use in a home defense scenario.

(really tempted to cancel post right here :thinking: )

No - on to my personal opinion of PCC’s, being the owner of one.
Would I use it to hunt? In a SHTF situation, certainly.
For Home Defense? Yes. Just not my first choice.
Range toy? YOU BET! They remind me of a paintball gun. Non-existant recoil and quite quiet (still wear ear pro).
Also great for varied position training with as noted in an above post.

To me, a PCC would never be my first choice for anything, unless I could find no other firearm.
Mine may get shot 2 or 3x a year, and just for kicks with FMJ reloads but, I would trust it, and myself, if the need arose.

@Johnnyq60 - just saw your post pop up! My post above was to show the frangible ammo that was being discussed. :wave:

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Oh ok brother @Robert401 my apologies I stand corrected.:+1::+1:

It is not a fair question, until you add some context. E.g., what application and what distance?
This is subjective, but firing an AR pistol in .223 or 300blk indoors, in the dark, without earmuffs, will impact your senses much worse, than firing that CZ Scorpion in 9mm.
Take hiking or survival gear, I don’t know any AR to fit in a backpack better than KelTec Sub2000.

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There was a podcast with John Lovell and Colin Noire. John Lovell shared a story from his ranger days. He said with adrenaline being so high, the noise of firing 556 in an enclosed space was not an issue in real combat (he’s often advocated an AR without a can for Home defense).

I’m not at all saying he’s correct. I just thought the information was interesting. (8 minutes into the video).

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Audible exclusion is a real thing, not sure you can depend on it saving your hearing but there are a lot of studies of people not hearing the gun go bang. At the end of the day I wouldnt worry about hearing, I’d worry about having the best tool I could have for the job at hand.

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For all of you who have no physical limitations, a large stockpile of various ammo, several calibers laying around, and numerous guns; the question is academic. If I had an AR-15 and a couple thousand rounds beside it, I’d use it to defend my home and family.
When a choice needed to be made, already using a 9mm concealed carry weapon (as well as my wife) choosing a long barrel that uses the same ammo made sense.
After finding out how nice the rifle shoots, how accurate it can be with a red dot sight, and knowing the velocity of the round increases about 200 fps; I knew it was a good decision.
I am NOT talking about inside my home. Note the remarks about our 9mm pistols (not to mention the Remington 870 20-gauge with #1 buck). The carbine is for outside the home when I may have to reach out and touch something.
It works for me very well. The rest of you with your ARs and such; I wish you well.

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The concept being if you’re going to carry the weight and bulk of a rifle, why not also take advantage of the power of a rifle?

My personal opinion is use whatever you practice with. People like to split hairs, but both can be good self defense options.

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The concept makes sense if you are in a bug out or get home situation on foot you are carrying one caliber round to fit the rifle and pistol. If you are moving on foot to get home ounces add up to pounds that you must carry. In those situations you are not looking for a fight but trying to avoid a fight except in defense. But if I am at home I will carry a rifle caliber.

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