Where is the line between self-defense and murder?

Legal & Second Amendment
21

First, welcome to the camp,
95% of the people here would consider these good relevant questions

Good answers Karacal, but this answer is best.

Do not tell anyone that you are armed

Absorb all the info and training that the USCCA offers.

Kevin M from USCCA has excellent videos on YouTube, As do a couple of USCCA lawyers.

Active Self Protection (ASP) has great situational videos also on YouTube and Patreon.

Bear in mind that to my knowledge, there are no self defense lawyers on this forum , if there are please join in.

Again welcome to our community, stay safe and vigilant
 Geno

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22

Yes, WV has just changed its legislation allow ‘Campus Carry’. I am already carrying concealed, but I just figure that if I get knocked out then my shirt would easily slip up a few inches and reveal my piece.

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Ryan, Don’t get knocked out.

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Self-Defense Law: Overview

https://www.findlaw.com/criminal/criminal-law-basics/self-defense-overview.html

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Hi Ryan203,
Welcome to the community! First I would say congratulations for being a responsible owner and CCW.
Lots of good feedback here and those are great questions. My only addition would be the four rules of self defense that I learned in our instructor class.
1-You must be in fear for your life or great bodily injury.
2-You must be the innocent party.
3-A lesser than deadly force would not have worked.
4-You had no means of escape.
Hope it helps a bit. Please get all of the training that you can and keep training.

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Welcome to the forum Ryan203. We are glad you found us.

Only thing I can add is “YEAH!!! What They Said.”

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Welcome, @Ryan203 . You’re asking very good questions; not dumb at all. And you’re asking them at the right time–early on in your carry experience. On top of that, you’re asking them in the right place. There may be a lot of static on these pages, but the questions you ask are the heart of what this forum is meant for.

Many above have offered excellent suggestions as to the legal side of your main question, the line between self-defense and murder. That being the case, allow me to offer a few personal thoughts on the matter.

The first thing to keep in mind is that everybody–and I mean EVERYBODY–will be looking at your actions in hindsight. YOU are the only person with the real-time experience of your specific incident. Every other person in the world, be they LEO, lawyer (for and against), journalist, family member, friend, postman, or traveling salesman has the luxury of spending hours and days and weeks in split-second by split-second review of your assessment of hundreds of variables which likely started and ended (if reports are accurate) in under ten seconds; often much less. This reality makes training incredibly important, both in firearm proficiency and in understanding the legal landscape of your region.

The second you have already mentioned: SELF-defense. We are private individuals who have armed and trained ourselves in order to defend ourselves and our loved ones from imminent death or injury. As such, we are not police. Nor are we peacekeeping troops or defenders of the realm. We defend ourselves, our loved ones, and, in relatively rare situations. innocent third parties under imminent deadly threat.

My own stance is to deal with dangerous threats which are forced on me/mine, not to insert myself into dangerous situations which are not directed at me/mine, and to avoid (as best as I can judge beforehand) places or activities which present an expectation of danger. I do not insert myself into violent situations which have nothing to do with me. (Meaning violence between adults. If kids are involved it’s a different matter.) Many times the best course of action is to alert the authorities (911), start recording, and be a good witness. That might sound cold hearted but the uncomfortable reality is that no one of us can make the world in general a safe[r] place, and trying to do so usually turns out badly for the would-be savior.

I had an experienced acquaintance once tell me “If the deadly threat is coming at you, it’s self-defense. If the threat is moving away from you, it’s murder.” Over-simplified, maybe, but essentially correct.

Best of luck and keep asking questions.

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Happy Anniversary @George98

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Oh boy
 Lots of great questions.

1- Laws aside the actual difference between “murder” and “self defense” is intent. Murder is the killing of another human being without a legal reason to do so. YOU start the aggression and carry out the actions that will cause their death. It could be premeditated (planned) or not.

Self defense is the act of stopping (or prevention) of actions by anther human that you know will end up in your death, great bodily harm or criminal sexual assault, by use of force that CAN BE deadly in nature. The death of the assailant is immaterial to the discussion. The core of this is that you have to be totally convinced that this is your ONLY avenue of action that will accomplish the stopping of the harm coming to you.

You can also use deadly force to prevent these things from happening to another person if you believe they are incapable or not in a position to defend themselves. And then there is “imperfect self-defense” which is defined as an intentional killing committed with an unreasonable but honest belief that circumstances justified deadly force. For example, you shoot someone you believe is about to shoot an innocent person and it turns out that the guy you shot was an undercover cop making an arrest.

2- Your best defense against an LEO wrongfully engaging you with deadly force is clear communications and swift actions from YOU that will make the LEO understand that you are NOT a threat. That can take many forms but the biggest one is total compliance. Follow their orders swiftly and do not give them ANY reason to believe that YOU are a threat.

Your ABSOLUTE best bet is to make sure you get into a class with an instructor that is really good at explaining the laws that have to do with concealed carry and use of deadly force in your state. At this point the core of the laws is pretty aligned throughout the country. The USCCA has MANY videos on these subjects and their pistol class is dead on on this topic and arguably the best curriculum out there. Also, if you have the funds, make an appointment with a criminal defense attorney in your state to spend an hour asking questions. Trust me they will love you for that and it’s a great investment in time and money.

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#1 WALK AWAY!

#2 Once distance is created, re-assess.

#3 Protect yourself if pursued.

You have de-escalated by walking away and in doing so established reasonable action by avoiding confrontation. You have now established a defense in action taken against an aggressor meaning perceived serious bodily injury and or death to your person evidenced by your reasonable actions.

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Almost 200 views here so far within one day.

Your questions help teach us each here, and many others wondering the same thing. In the spirit of teaching, and learning, “you helped us” Ryan203.

Good for us all to review material periodically.

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32

Welcome to our family my friend.

Honestly, I think these are questions similar to the questions we all ask ourselves everyday.
When do I use my gun
I can’t really add much to what’s already been said.

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Someone will always find a new wrinkle to add fuel to the fire.

Being able to express the justification, acceptable to the jury, for the action you took.

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34

CUA = Can You Articulate that you felt justified?
That you feared for your life?

Did your action(s) meet your state’s standards?

Was there a disparity of force?

Whatever the verbals: numbers, straight, weapons, etc.?

What was your disadvantage?

What was the totality of the situation? If you had no out. I your state got the Castle Doctrine, and, or does Stand your ground apply?

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USCCA Protector Academy courses and scenario based videos cover much of this, as well as some other sources the YouTube channel of Wilson Combat is worth a look. Our legal guy Tom Greave, Defense Attorney/Law Firm, former prosecutor is spot on. We have resources, use them.

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murder
/mĂ»râ€Čdər/
intransitive verb
  1. To kill (another human) in an act of murder.
  2. To kill brutally or inhumanly.

Thousands of civilians were murdered in the bombardment.

  1. To put an end to; destroy.

murdered their chances.

What I keep a hold on in my mind is the fact that it’s all murder. When I murder someone in order to save my own life, I won’t be going around telling folks, ‘I self- defenced him’. No, I didn’t. I murdered him.

It’s all murder. That’s not even a question.

The question is, can you convince a judge or a jury that you had no choice but to murder him in order to keep on living?

For some people, that’s all there is to it. Can I get free of this case and get on with my life, or will I go to prison?

And there’s something else. That murder will change you. Killing someone, even in self defense, 100% justifiable, will change your life inside and out.

Everyone behaves differently and responds and reacts differently. For some, it will mean nothing to you. You won’t feel one shred of remorse. Others, will fall apart over what they have done and will never touch another firearm again as long as they live. Some get a taste for killing and can’t wait to do it again.

You just never know what it’s going to be like for you until it happens.

As for me, personally, not looking forward to ever having to do a thing like that. I will, if I have to, do it in a heartbeat. But if I can walk away from it I certainly will.

I’ve had three potentially deadly encounters in my life and in my work. All three I managed to survive without killing anyone. Thank goodness. The last one, in 2003, was the worst of the three. He went to the hospital before he went to jail, but he’d be fine, eventually, after healing a broken left forearm, broken ribs, lacerations, a severe concussion and over 100 sutures in the back of his head. I nearly got arrested for assault, because I had only one little mark on me and the cop who scoured that parking lot couldn’t find my attacker’s weapon, which turned out later, when he finally did find it, to be a brick in a sock. This big, strong fellow was whacked out of his skull on PCP and crack cocaine. He just didn’t feel any pain and kept on coming at me. I had to hurt him to stop him. No choice.

I’ve taken down plenty of guys who were trying to hurt me and plenty who were trying to hurt others. This never bothered me. I can do all that with a clean conscience. But murder? Dunno how I would react and how my body would respond to that. Not anxious to find out.

I’d be grateful to leave this world knowing I’ve never killed anyone.

I’d be sad to leave this world knowing I didn’t kill someone who needed to be killed. If I failed to stop him hurting or killing someone else, I would not want that on my conscience. I’d rather take his life, if I had to, than let him hurt an innocent person.

Never fail to protect, and may all your good deeds go unpunished.

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I’m sorry Ted.
You 'Defended yourself and had to hurt a Whack to save your life (Justifiable)

If you read my Sh!t I Never tell anybody what to do
I turn it around and say what I would do.
(Let me preface what I’m about to say w/ ‘I’m not a Lawyer’)

*LOSE that word from your vocabulary.
*When talking to the Police
*Giving a statement in Interrogation
*Without your mouth piece present.

In a Self defense shoot.
YOU defended yourself.
If the attacker died you Shot him defending yourself—You didn’t KILL him nor MURDER him.
My Opinion Only is if you say/use the above words you Open yourself up to EXTREME Prosecution (and if that does miraculously go your way, you WILL LOSE in a Civil Trail by the Por VICTOM’S family because ‘YOU MURDERED HIM!’ Not only that but YOU ADMITTED IT!.
We Gunners are against the :8ball: already by Defending ourselves which is OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT, by using a Firearm (also OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT (for now)
Without throwing harmful self incriminating verbiage that throws US under the bus.

You are in a shoot
Attacker is down (make sure!)
Scan your perimeter for any of the skell’s friends
CALL 911 (say what’s on the back of the USCCA card (and only that)
Then call your speed dialed choices of Lawyers Rapidly!
(You tell the Dispatcher, what you are wearing, where EXACTLY you are, you had a Defensive shoot and the threat is down. You are a CCW holder and either holster your weapon or put in down near you but away from your hands. (I won’t put it down)
Don’t put your hands up when the man comes a knockin’, put them away from your body hands clearly visible and empty.
A shoot will change you (especially if you take a life) BUT KNOW ONE THING: YOU DIDN’T START THIS! YOU FINISHED IT!. YOU DEFENDED YOURSELF OR ANOTHER INNOCENT!.

If a guy insults you and you draw your weapon and walk up to him and put one between his eyes YOU ARE A MURDERER.
If a Phucker breaks into your home and attacks you or your (5) year old you DEFENDED YOURSELF.
With the rampant Corruption of our injustice system you don’t need to be handing them an EASY CONVICTION ON A PLATTER.
When the Responding Officers approach you and start asking you questions

I am going to say ‘I was attacked, In fear for my life, I defended myself’ Then Shut the hell up.
‘I will cooperate but I need to wait for my Lawyer before I say anything else.’
You WILL experience an adrenaline dump.
You will be ‘shocky’
You may want to talk! DON’T.
You have the RIGHT to remain silent USE IT! Everything you say can AND WILL be used against you.
Sometimes the Police/Courts ARE NOT YOUR FRIEND
(They may act like they are you Bud—THEY ARE NOT!)

LET THE LAWYER(S) do their job. Don’t make your defense harder for them.

Mi dos Centavos
WWG1WGA

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38

I got all that already.

I wasn’t speaking of murder and killing and self-defense in a legal context. I’m speaking of it from a personal standpoint and what doing violence does to us and our lives, how it affects us and changes us.

While what you’re saying is true and correct, it’s not what I was talking about.

I would also add one of the errors in your thinking: you said something about taking to the police. No. We don’t talk to the police. Never. Keep your mouth shut at all times when cops are around and lawyer up immediately–especially if you have just shot someone.

Stop talking to the police, folks! Stop self-snitching!

Invoke the 5th and 6th and zip it and keep it zipped!

In other words: shut the f*ck up!

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Negatory Sir,
‘I’ am going to say what ‘I’ wrote Sir.
I will cooperate (after my mouth piece arrives)
‘I’ will NOT make it antagonistic right from the start with them.
You do what you like.
You make statements like you did—good luck, you WILL get feedback from us.

Mi Quatro Frijoles.
adonde nosotros vamos uno nosotros ir todo!!!
Nessun passo sul serpente

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If you can keep it to just that, you’ll probably be all right.

But most folks can’t.

I’m not antagonistic. All I might say is, “On the advice of my attorney, I invoke my 5th Amendment Right to remain silent and my 6th Amendment Right to a lawyer.”

Remember: you must invoke your 5th Amendment! You must say those words. Saying anything else will be construed as hostile, antagonistic and obstructive and will give you problems in court. You must say those words: I invoke my 5th Amendment Right to remain silent.. You may put it in other words, but don’t forget 5th Amendment and remain silent and I wanna lawyer!*.

Also, I’m not going to tell a cop I will speak to him when my lawyer gets here. I am not going to speak to the cop at all. Not ever. I will speak only to my attorney.

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