What would make you draw?

We’re all free to speak here but y our crappy attitude needs work.

Whatever you mean by a “pile up” I’m not sure of but if it is a physical assault of some kind that would involve hands and/or feet.

The justification for use of deadly force is not dependent on just traditional man made weapons, it includes the use of our God Given weapons as well.

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Perhaps you want to be my therapist now because I used the term “disparity of force”?
You can instruct however you want … I do not have to agree to what you present as enumerated facts. I personally prefer to use terms as found in industry standards. If you take umbridge with my “attitude” then, in my opinion, the problem is for you to deal with. I wish you well. Dan

The law defines what constitutes “disparity of force”.

An 86yo weighing 95lbs facing a 25yo 220lbs “unarmed” attacker has sufficient disparity of force to be justified in the use of deadly force.

The weapons that “unarmed” attacker has are hands and feet.

The poster you attempted to correct was correct.

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Y’all - please keep it on topic and civil. When you start making it personal it goes bad quickly. Respectfully discussion is the house rule and I know you are capable of doing that.

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@Dan17, I’m not sure what you mean by a pile up? That phrase makes me think of car accidents. So I’d love to hear what your trying to explain.

Disparity of force does involve a difference in the ability to defend yourself - in self-defense hands and feet can be considered weapons.

@Dan17 and @WildRose - if you don’t agree, that’s fine, but the attitudes expressed in your conversation is not welcome. Nastiness and name calling does not help anyone understand your point of view. All points of view are welcome here as long as they’re expressed respectfully.

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Thank you, Dawn, for your concern and consideration. Dan

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An example … in the sport if football … piling onto a downed player … is dangerous and is cause for a penalty. Hands and feet are not being used in an aggressive manner but the total weight can cause suffocation and death to the one on the bottom of the pile.
In other cases … people have died from being crushed by a “pile up” at the exits of a burning building … again … hands & feet are not part of the “aggression”.

If I am wrong to point this out in a public forum then perhaps I need to keep my opinions to myself and let time and experience speak for me. With all due respect … Dan

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So, to continue to beat a dead horse … another example is the “antifa mob” tactic … to use numbers of antifa members to isolate a couple, or an individual, and physically press against them to achieve their goal of intimidation or forced response … this is disparity of force example … and no weapons, hands and feet etc. are part of the mix … but the “victim” is still in great danger … in my opinion.

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Not wrong… and the additional explanation helped get your point across (I missed your meaning in the abbreviate version). On-point, and useful thank you :innocent:

No hands and feet? What are they going to attack with?

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I work with a couple guys who are over 6’4" and north of 350 lbs… they could just sit on me and I’d be dead in 6 minutes with nary a punch thrown.

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Can you give us an example of such an attack where a “pile on” occurred where hands and feet were not used?

Yes, numbers can certainly trigger the lawful use of force or deadly force but only if they actually pose a physical threat.

Without hands and feet no such threat exists.

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I think we’re down to picking literal nits here.

The point being a pressing crowd can be a threat even if nobody is throwing punches. Nobody is suggesting that hands and feet aren’t attached to the people creating a crush. But in a crush, they are not the lethal threat… the disparity of force is in the mass of human flesh, regardless of how we name the body parts.

In my case, either of the Big Daves I work with could knock me off my feet with a shoulder slam and sit on me until I was dead from suffocation no hands or feet involved. Due to disparity of force I’d have no other choice but to shoot them if I wanted to save myself. (BTW they’re both super nice guys, so just using them as a size example).

I have to say the antifa people seem to operate in sucker-punch and run mode, but if they knocked someone down and dogpiled them, that looks like a disparity of force situation to me.

:laughing: yeah I probably could… but my Run Fu is pretty broken… that’s why I’m always working on my Gun Fu :wink:

I’m just relying to what was stated above.

If the approaching crowd isn’t using hands and feet you’re not going to be harmed.

Never in my entire life have I heard of or seen an attack where a crowd of attackers simply closed in on someone and sat or laid on them. At a minimum someone is going to have to either hit you, kick you, or wrestle you to the ground in such an attack.

Simply being surrounded is not going to be justification for the use of deadly force in most jurisdictions even if the crowd is verbally abusive.

There must be an actual imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death before we can use deadly force lawfully.

I disagree on that. Try being an average sized female some time. If the crowd is surrounding me and preventing me from leaving, we are in a prelude to something worse.

I agree, and you and I see the threat of being surrounded… and what comes next… quite differently.

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The situation must be dire & I am left with no other option. I must see a weapon and that weapon must be in a threatening position. The laws have made defending oneself & loved ones something that if you thought about it critically, you would not act.
With that being said, we came home a few months back and the tv was on in our living room. I told my wife to stay in the car as I did draw & proceeded to clear our home. Still not sure what happened that night. :v:t5:

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Thanks for explaining @Dan17!

I’ve been in one of those - in a non-emergency type situation at a concert. I was picked up and moved across the entire stadium by pure body pressure. I knew what I was in for when I went to the concert (I was much younger).

I don’t know if I’d shoot in that type of situation now - I don’t know if I’d be able to get to my weapon. I think the best means of self-defense in this type of situation is to avoid them if at all possible. If you’re crushed under or between people, getting to your firearm may be very difficult and I’d rather not pull a knife in such close quarters.

I’d disagree with that given the examples @Dan17 stated, @WildRose. If there’s a flash mob you could very easily be caught up in it and carried away by it, especially if you have little ones with you or can’t move quickly.

I’m going to have to think about that situation some more. Interesting perspective, @Dan17. I’m glad you brought it up. Please remember text doesn’t always come across right the first time, follow up questions are welcome. :slight_smile:

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I just look at it from the very practical and legal side.

What qualifies as disparity of force is different with each individual and the circumstances present. Women from the legal side of things tend to have much greater leeway legally when it comes to the disparity of force.

Men and women may be equal in most ways under the law but men and women are not physically equal and women are more frequently victimized than men so with the XX chromosomes comes a bit of an advantage in the eyes of the law.

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If you’re just caught up and carried along with the crowd where is the threat of grave bodily harm or death?

You’re going to have a real hard time articulating a legal justification without a clear threat of grave bodily harm or death.