Well, I guess I need to stand down

Miscellaneous
42

Again, each state is different, and signs are not set by legal standards, and in some states there is no crime for violating the no gun signs until they ask you to leave and if you do not, it is trespassing.

The question is, if we are supposed to be ‘responsibly armed Americans’, how can we disregard either laws, regardless of misdemeanor or felony, or disregard the rights of other people.

It should not matter if the sign is official, if it is not, you are clearly aware of their intent…

And Texas or Illinois may have signage criteria to meet, not all do. I did not state anything about a specific state, yet you focus only on your state, instead of the general issue.

This is what I do, except for rare occasions when I might need to meet someone and they choose a no guns restaurant, I secure the firearm in the car, or if I must go to the post office or court house, I secure my firearm

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43

So, you are stating you will disrespect others, their rights, their rules, and you are superior to them. It is not always about following a specific law, it is about respect of the rights of others, their property, their rules.

Yes it is, yet that does not give you unlimited rights, as we have already covered, your rights end when they meet the rights of others.

Such as your right to swing your fist ends just before contact with the nose of another… in other words, your right to carry ends at the DOOR to their business.

Whether there is a law or not, you do NOT have a right to carry on other people’s property, unless they allow it.

We can not be ‘responsibly armed Americans’ if we disregard, disrespect, the rights of others.

The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins. ~ Attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr… but perhaps more directly to ;
John B. Finch who in 1882 stated “Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

Your right to carry, ENDS at the property line of another person or the DOOR of their business.

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44

Their right to not have guns in their establishment, is laid out in black and white. As part of the exercise of that right, they must put up the prescribed signage. It’s in the law. Law, does not hinge on feelings. If the owners intent is to bar legal entry to someone carrying a gun, then there is a specific way to to just that. And that is where their right ends. That’s how the law works. Here’s the language of said law, either a party is compliant, or no compliant. Intent and feelings don’t stand up in court. Black and white words do.

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45

Perhaps in YOUR state.

However, the RIGHTS we ALL have are NOT limited by that law.

The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins. ~ Attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr… but perhaps more directly to ;
John B. Finch who in 1882 stated “Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

I will repeat this.

As it means your right to carry ends at their door to their business, which is where their right begins.

So, we are either ‘Responsibly Armed Americans’ or we are yahoos that disrespect the rights of others and think our right is superior to everyone else.

If I see a hand written sign, I know it is not anything that is legal by YOUR standards or Texas… but I do not have a ‘no guns’ charge, I will honor their sign, and take my business somewhere else.

A no guns sign is not enforceable by law. Where I am. That is why I am using a general format and not a state specific issue. If there is a no guns sign, the most that can happen is I am asked to leave, and if I leave, no problem. If I do not, it is criminal trespass.

The signage is not the issue, it is the RIGHTS we each have, and if we expect our rights to be respected, we must show the same respect to the rights of others.

Again, your right ends when their right begins.

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46

It is a given, that you need to know the laws where you are, not just in your home state. In Illinois, my home state, the signs carry the weight of law. In neighboring Missouri, where I often travel, they do not.

You can be asked to leave for lots of thing, and if you refuse, that is a crime, with a WRITTEN LAW to back it up. Not a feeling. Not an intent. A LAW. Right now, you could be asked to leave because you aren’t wearing a face diaper.

I don’t try to figure out the intent. I pay attention to the legal boundaries in which I must operate to exercise my rights. The establishment owner has to operate in the same legal boundaries.

So, if the sign does not carry the weight of law, you cannot be found guilty of a crime for carrying a gun. If you are asked to leave, and do so, you still have not committed ANY crime. If you are asked to leave, and refuse, you are now committing the crime of trespassing. And, in some places, can receive an addition citation for carrying a gun, while committing the crime of trespassing.
But, if the store owner just up and calls the cops, without asking you to leave, you are not committing a crime. I have had first hand experience with this exact scenario. Wrong sign, cops called, cops read the exact law to the owner, and told me to have a nice day. When the store owner found out what I was buying, they still wanted my money. Yeah, not happening.

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47

That is a bunch of BS. You are splitting hairs and basically saying, the rights of others mean nothing to you.
I do not consider that Responsibly Armed. If you chose to do so, it is your choice, but it does reflect on all firearms owners and those of us who carry.

The concern over whether it is a crime you can be held accountable for, or such a minor crime it does not matter is not the issue, the principle of equal rights is the issue.

Have a good night. I expressed a view, did not expect to see such anger over it.

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48

One is a crime, one is not. That is why we are having this discussion. Is it splitting hairs? Not really. To exercise THEIR right, they have to put up the LEGAL sign. If they don’t, it’s not enforceable by LAW.

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49

Not exactly.
your state may have a signage requirement, that makes it enforceable by criminal charge, but…

other states do not have an enforceable charge… a no guns sign can only have you asked to leave, unless it is a prohibited location.

The issue is, we each and every one have equal rights, and when you decide to enter their establishment, cross their threshold, you are agreeing to their rules and to honor their rights.

You do not have a right to carry on their property. It is only if they allow it. In your state, there is signage requirements that make is a criminal chargeable offense, but without that sign, it is still their right to not have your carry on their property or in their business.
Your right to carry ends at their door, even without a sign. It is based on the Constitution and equal rights.

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50

I tend to agree but I am not about to waist to much energy on hypothetical questions. We that have decided to conceal ed carry have for the most part followed the law to get to this point. We read the signs the law requires us to read. We take the actions we have to take to not put our permits in jeopardy. Is it then too much to ask the a store owner put at least the same effort as required by their individual state or community? They are trying to preempt a right we have while not caring what actions are required of them to accomplish their desires. Respect is earned not assumed. But even if they don’t no one has any expectation of any one going beyond what the law requires just so they will feel justified in not following the regulations required of them. This is not an anger issue it is an answer to a proposed question of how we handle our legal responsibility as gun owners. A right I might add that is under attack even today. And my response would have covered at least a few states I have carried in. What ever the law is that I do. Not whatever their opinion is. And no I feel no anger at the question.

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51

All they have the right to do, is ASK ME TO LEAVE. If I refuse, then their right becomes the right to press charges for trespassing. It is a business, open to the public. Those are their rights in that situation. I have the right to not go in, but, if I do go in, and they DONT ASK ME TO LEAVE, I’m not breaking ANY LAW. It is on me, to know when I need to leave if asked, or when not to go in at all. It’s also on me, to know what I can LEGALLY ignore as far as goody little stickers goes.
If my pistol remained 100% undetectable, and they ask me to leave, what is their premise. They start to wonder into discrimination territory. If they don’t know I have a gun, why would they ask me to leave?

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52

Again, you are focusing on the state laws.

I am focusing on the Constitution, and the principle of equal rights.

Our right to carry ends at their door.

Regardless of if you violate some state law, by entering their business or property, you are violating their rights.

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53

Because The Constitution enumerated those rights as states rights. The only law in The Constitution about guns is the 2A. Then it becomes and individual state law issue as what restrictions they place, and how the states handle carrying on private property.
Which amount to 50 different interpretations of how to apply those laws.

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54

Yes, but ultimately, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and all of our rights are equal, none are superior to the rights of others.

That is why I focus primarily on that.

We have far too many anti-gun attackers to provide some additional means of attack.

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55

If that is your standard then the only answer is, we follow the law as written in the state it is written in. Because the Constitution doesn’t cover the right to carry in a state run business that then transfers to the state to decide and enforce. The Tenth Amendment declares, “The powers “not” delegated to the United “States” by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the “states” , are reserved to the “states” respectively, or to the people.” In other words, “states” have “all” powers “not granted” to the “federal government” by the Constitution. And as an aside, I have never met an anti gun person that cares how respectful you are as they push to restrict your rights to own and carry a gun. Never, not once. It is not a matter of respect, that isn’t a constitutional matter. It is a matter of law and we are in the right following the law. Without the Second Amendment the States could take that right away.

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56

A couple of things - my home is private property. Thus, I as either a homeowner or resident have the right to ask you not to bring a weapon in, and if I’m not the actual owner, that owner has the right to state ‘no guns, period’ and that must be respected. Likewise, most businesses are on private property. If the owner of that property says ‘no guns’ that is the owner’s right, even though, for example, GA does not recognize ‘no guns allowed’ signs.
The property owner’s rights are the ones that would decide the issue. Bear in mind though, that the property owner and the business owner are not necessarily the same person(s), and if the property owner doesn’t care but the business owner does not want firearms in his establishment, well that brings us to the second thing I want to mention.

Respect. Everyone wants, even demands it, but so few are willing to extend it. 'Nuff said.

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57

In regards to this specific section, it is not the laws, which differ between states, it is the Constitution.

We each and every one have equal rights. As you, yourself pointed out,
The right to swing my fist ends where the other man’s nose begins. ~ Attributed to Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
It perhaps comes from ; John B. Finch in 1882 : “Yes, but your right to swing your arm leaves off where my right not to have my nose struck begins.”

In other words, your right to carry ends at their door, their threshold, their property line.

Regardless of any state laws that establish any requirements for signage to make it enforceable by law… or any other local law. My state does not have enforceable no gun signs, but if there is a no gun sign, it is clear they are letting it be known their right and their rules are to not allow firearms, and while the choice to carry anyway exists, they can ask you to leave, and if you do not, you may face criminal trespass charges… but, if it is known that they do not want firearms, and your right to carry ENDS at their door, why even enter. Take the money to another business. Why give anti-gunners more ammo to attack us. Why display arrogance and disrespect and rudeness regarding their rights by declaring you are ignoring their rights and rules (even if their sign does not meet any state legal requirements for your state… in other words, saying ‘since your sign does not meet the state requirement I will ignore your rights and wishes and rules and do as I please and carry anyway’.)

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the Land, and we already have far too many infringements and attempts to subvert it. I do not see the purpose in creating animosity with those who have exercised their right, that they have without any state law, by disrespecting their rights.

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58

Has the businesses requiring you to forsake protecting yourself not already created animosity? Are they any different than a State that tries to modify the 2 amendment by limiting the magazine size in your weapon? If the Law allows an action and we live under that law are we not within our legal rights? If someone lives in a state that grants entry to all carry or to all concealed carry citizens is not the business trying to disrespect the citizens and the law?

It seems to me that if two ideologies reach a moral impasse the tie breaker in the Constitution is the law you live under. If the law says they can keep you out with signage follow that and you have followed the law allowed by the Tenth Amendment. If the Law says you have access unless asked to leave follow that. Also falls under the Tenth. But if the law permits access to a business open to the public and licensed to do that business by the same authority making the law they must follow that. That way it shows you have respect for the constitution and the law. So far that seems to be the ruling by the Supreme Court when it determined the 2nd amendment applies to individual citizens even over the objections of the State.

And a business owner or manager that denies access to a legally armed citizen for personal reasons is already showing they have no respect for that citizen or the law ( in my opinion)

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59

Perhaps, however, I return to the fact your right to carry ENDS at their door.

Not exactly. If the law allows an action, and you live within that law, you are within the law, you are legal, however, you may not be addressing your or another person’s rights. You may be within the law, but again, YOUR right to carry ENDS at their door, which is where THEIR right begins.

Let’s try it this way. If you own property, and someone walks onto your property and holds a Satanic prayer meeting, but you are a Christian and do not want any Satanic prayers on your property… THERI right to Freedom of Religion does NOT trump your rights to your property and your right to your freedom of speech or religion to determine WHAT you allow on your property. Yes, you can ask them to leave, but they did NOT have the right to have a Satanic prayer on YOUR property, regardless of their rights.
The same as your right to carry ends at their door, the Satanists right to religion ends at your property line.

The law can not grant superior rights to one over the other, it simply provides for that state to enforce certain aspects, but does not alter the fact of YOUR right ends when it meets the rights of another. WITHOUT any additional laws. The state laws, provide for additional, not the only, rules or guidance.

And, as I stated, you can still carry inside, in violation of their rights and rules, and they can ask you to leave, but why violate their rights, even if the law does not provide for your arrest.

Just because a business does not post the ‘proper’ sign (in your state, as other states have different laws and rules regarding signs and no guns allowed), if they post any sign, it is clear they have decided to not allow firearms on their property or in their business, and if the law does not provide for your arrest if you violate the sign, it is still their right to not allow you to carry.

By that standard, any who decide to carry anyway, are being arrogant and disrespectful to the property owner / business owner. Why? Why display that type of arrogance and disrespect, when you can simply follow their rules for the time you are in their business (IF you really really need to go in) or you can go take your money to a more friendly establishment.

I would agree, however I also consider the fact, it is their RIGHT to do so as it is their business / property.

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61

This thread has gone off-topic and is closed.

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