Medicinal purposes.
Think about this. If the perp had shot at him and then pulled the gun down to his side, should he be able to shoot? In this case, if the perp hit him with the car, should he be able to defend by using his firearm? To me, same same. Both ways the perp was using a deadly weapon.
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A more accurate question would be, if the perp shot at him, dropped his gun to his side, turned, and started running away, would it be justified to shoot the perp in the back while fleeing?
You donât get to use lethal force just because someone tried to do the same to you but is no longer a threat.
In your example, theyâre still a threat, but thatâs not what happened here.
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To be clear, in NM, a smoke shop is not a dispensary. There is no cannabis sold from this shop. (Or at least there shouldnât be)
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I am pretty sure that sign is photoshopped or on the store next-door/next-store.
Itâs honestly probably related to the Walgreens pharmacy nextdoor. But my point to you was that thereâs a distinction between a smoke shop and a dispensary in NM. Smoke shops sell accessories, but not weed. Only dispensaries actually sell weed.
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So, if a perp shoots at you and runs for cover because you are pulling your gun, you canât shoot him? If that is the case then he goes for cover and I have to wait for him to shoot at me again after he gets to his preferred position. That makes no sense to me. He has already tried to apply deadly force. The only way I can defend my self is if I get hit by a bullet? Same with the car, the guy is defending against his action. He could just as easily turn around and do it again or put it in reverse and try it again. He has already shown that he is willing to use it as a deadly weapon. Should I give him a second chance? Is he not a threat because he started running or driving? Is he still in control of the deadly weapon he was using? When does a gunfight stop?
I agree the merchant shouldnât have chased him to begin with but then the circumstances change if he was hit by the car and especially since the perp had already committed a crime and was committing another with a hypothetical hit and run.
It will be an interesting case for sure. None of us can call it without a lot more true information.
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âŠwhich pretty much is,
when did the threat stop?
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That is the toughest part. It is something you canât truly know. Is it when the perp begins walking away with his weapon or the driver gets out of his car? Or maybe when they get out of sight?
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I would recommend anyone reading this thread do the following.
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research the circumstances under which you can legally shoot someone running away from you. Look for the works of Andrew Branca and Masad Ayoob. Go take their classes if you can afford to.
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Think about crimes that have actually happened. Do bad guys ârun for cover?â How do you know heâs running for cover and not running away? Seems to me to be unlikely that someone who is running away from you in an on the street encounter is falling back to w defensible position to further shoot at you. They are usually running away. We can âwhat ifâ all day long. We canât shoot someone because they may come back and shoot again. We have to have some sort of evidence that gives us a very solid level of indication that the perp continues to pose that imminent threat of grave bodily harm or death to an innocent person.
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CYA stands for Can You Articulate. Can you articulate to a jury of your peers why you did what you did and why it meets the legal standard? Keep in mind that this jury has unlimited time to think about what you did with only seconds to think about it.
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In the hand to hand world we talk about this all of the time. You attack me I disarm you and use the gun/knife You Brought to the fight against you. Did the threat end as soon as I took the gun/knife? Itâs a tough one for sure.
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I ordered the book by Masad Ayoob Monday. It should arrive today.
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It is unlikely but not unheard of by any means. How do you decide which one they
will choose to do. They already have a deadly weapon whether a car or a gun.
They have already tried to harm me, I have no real indication that would stop just
because they lower their gun or put the transmission in drive. All I can go on is
prior actions. -
That is very true and I have said that before. Judges, juries, and DAâs are
sometimes the scariest people of them all.
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I sat on a jury where a guy shot another guy 5 times, he lived. Of the 12 Jurors 4 had actually fired a gun. Thatâs who will be deciding your fate.
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âŠunder cross examination?
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Cross examination is worse. You have to not only articulate why you did what you did, but you also have to actively negate the opposing counsel putting words in your mouth with leading questions.
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And what was the final verdict? Too me they guy that came to the house would be guilty of attempted murder. He initiated the conflict between himself and the homeowner and there apparently was no assault by the homeowner.
Jurys are scary. So are DAâs. I say, donât be there unless your life was in danger.
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My first impression was, the kid was afraid for his life, the OG came to the door and the kid freaked. During deliberations I was convinced otherwise. The kid Did Come BACK to the house, pulled the gun and shot the guy. We convicted him.
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I guess this is where I respectfully disagree. Lowering the gun and putting a vehicle in drive is an action that must be considered. It canât be ignored because of prior actions. In the opening post, the vehicle was driving away from the victim.
If someone lowers the gun and runs away or puts a vehicle in drive and drives away from me I donât see how I can keep shooting at them. For me at least, itâs going to be incredibly difficult to articulate that I truly believed the guy was running for cover so he could continue to shoot at me so I had no choice except to shoot back.
I donât shoot because âI can,â I shoot because I was put in a situation by the bad guy where all other options had been exhausted and I was left with no other choice but to shoot. I personally (IMHO, YMMV) think a guy that lowers his gun and turns away from me provided me with some other options other than continuing to dispense multiple doses of high velocity lead.
Legal issues aside, what about tactics? If the bad guy is running away from me (even if I think heâs running for cover), why am I not running away from him, creating distance, and finding cover or concealment too? If the bad guy is driving his car in the opposite direction from me, why am I not taking that opportunity to escape? Is there anything that would stop a bullet or a vehicle that I can put between him and me? Whatâs the best tactic?
I guess Iâll just say it, and I mean it kindly, in addition to making a poor legal choice, it seems (from what limited info I have) he very likely made some less than wise tactical choices too.
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I agree with what you are saying but I do think the other can be and is true. The thing you said about someone lowering the gun and running âAWAYâ is what bothers me. I just donât think I (or actually anyone) can know that he is running away instead of going to cover or concealment. Not until the action is completed. I have seen videos of people firing while running and the same with looking for cover. You could run but my luck is not good, really. I would run and he would turn at the same time and it wouldnât bother him a bit to fill my back with lead. I canât run very well and all it does is keep my back to a man that is willing to shoot me or run me over. I would rather get to cover still facing him and be able to shoot if needed. If he keeps going out of my site, I wouldnât shoot. But if he is within range for me to safely shoot at him, he is in range to shoot at me again. I like the saying that says, do something to me once, shame on you. Do something to me twice, shame on me.
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âŠlike leaving X in case he brings it up again.
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