Yes, I read your post - all of it. The wife was definitely brandishing, so their OC law is meaningless, in that regard. Destruction of property is not a violent crime. We may consider it a violent act, but it is not a violent act under the law. Again, I did state that these people will not likely be prosecuted. The justification is not the destruction of property - one, in most states, cannot threaten nor use of lethal force to defend property - but their claims in a later interview that they were threatened - a he said/she said issue, with the exception that there is at least one video recording, though the videos are by people committing the trespassing acts.
I was not trying to denigrate you. I was only pointing out that property crimes are not legal justifications for brandishing or use, or threat, of lethal force. This is especially important as firearm owners, as we are often vilified in the media for merely believing in and exercising our RKBA.
I appreciate you making this point. Just as a failed robber calls 911 to get his intended victim in trouble, violent “protesters” may be looking to get homeowners in trouble with provocative behavior.
I apologize if my post was political, and if it was I will avoid that going forward. I learned some valuable things though, that are very much the kinds of things we need to know.
Yes, I agree with what you have said as ‘individual factors’. But I am not making an argument for any particular aspect of the numerous factors surrounding the event to be justification to ‘brandish’ a firearm. If anything, I am making an argument for a ‘totality of circumstances/factors’ that would need to be taken into consideration in determining if the couple acted unreasonably. I appreciate the dialogue.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but in most states it’s legal to openly carry a weapon on your own property. Both of these individuals, being lawyers, would know their legal right to do that. Pointing them at someone, even if that someone is on your property, might be a problem. Also, their property has been granted “historical” status, so that might afford them a little more “right” to protect it. It can’t be replaced like most homes or personal property.
Thanks for the great conversation here everyone. Y’all got a bit heated, but were able to work it out amongst yourselves! What a wonderful example of working through conflict with respect!
Just wanted to add this. This couple is under legal heat now. The media is taking the story differently where you go. They are talking about how her finger was carelessly on the trigger and how they where pointing their guns at the crowd. From my understanding, they’ve had to board up their law firm. I’ve heard the man interviewing talking about how this incident could ruin everything he’s worked for his whole life. I think these are all things to consider with these situations. I really hope the couple gets off on this, I hope they get better training, and I hope the story fades away for them so than get back to a normal life.
Very true. It is horrible that the city prosecutor wants to press charges against them. And that lame white guy in the video claiming the gate appeared to be unlocked? The video evidence clearly shows it broken, not just opened. It makes me sick. I was thinking if this happened to me, how would I handle this? I do not have a rifle nor a shotgun. I know I would not go out on my lawn. I definitely would have 911 on my phone demanding police come.
I recall someone in a thread once stated tell them that they thought they heard gunfire, get them to come out. I hope that would work, though, like in Parkland, it might make them cower more. In the end, you can only do what you are prepared to do. Even in the video, it does not appear that either of them had any more ammo than what was in their firearms. At least I have multiple mags loaded for my handguns, so I have more ammo than they had available. Although, if like other criminals, once the shooting begins, just like birds, they fly away as quickly as possible. Really sick, I sure hope I never have to face anything like that. I wonder if that prosecutor would do like the one in Richmond, VA, and call the police when the “protesters” arrived at her doorstep? The Richmond prosecutor also sides with the thugs, except in front of her property. Beyond reprehensible.
What I keep thinking about with this whole thing, is what would I do in their situation. When I think about how my wife and I would protect our home from a group similar to St. Louis. Would we stand outside our home defending it?
I keep thinking of the protesters going through the back yard, and through the neighbors to attack from behind. Do people think of how you would handle your home? A sneak attack of these peaceful protesters coming in from behind?
Then I think of having my wife in the back and me in front and that scares the heck out of me. When I think about it we really are alone in a lot of ways. It would be difficult for two people to protect something from a determined adversary. It is something to run through our minds on different attack approaches. It seems best to stay inside and cover as much as you can from inside.
Our neighbors are not 2nd amendment folks and we live in a typical suburb where houses are 20 - 30 feet apart or so. Some home have fences and some do not. We are in a dead end road, so not much traffic. Still easy access for a mob to go anywhere they want. We really have a very safe neighborhood but it would not take much to attack it if a group was determined to cause mayhem.
Dawn, too few Democrats say they support the 2nd Amendment, and the few Democrats who say they do at election time frequently vote the other way after they get in office. To the extent that I am a single-issue voter, it’s that I first discard anyone who is not a strong 2nd Amendment supporter. I don’t trust heir words- I look at the NRA ratings. Very few Democrats rate high by their evaluation.
It may be a Trump vs. Hillary or Trump vs. demented Biden, who’ll do whatever the more-leftward Dems tell him to do, so I’ll hold my nose and vote for Trump, just as I might do in a lower-level election in which the Democratic candidate may be more in line with my thoughts on other issues than the Republican candidate, but if the Dem is anti-2nd Amendment, he/she will never get my vote!
Thank you! Democrat and liberal gun owners exist. I’m a liberal, and I have many liberal, gun owning friends. We cherish BOTH our 1A and 2A very much. We also get frustrated by silly gun laws that are not based on firearm knowledge. The culture within so many of these firearm orgs can be very unwelcoming to liberals. So, we have our own gun owning communities, but I’m going to try and be more visible and active in general gun owning communities. I will do my best to not apply unfair archetypes to the conservatives here and I hope that courtesy will be reciprocated.
From a liberal perspective, what defines a liberal?
Birth control / right to life?
Gun control?
Welfare policies?
Health care policies?
Gender / social / racial / religious views?
Post police or post capitalist ideologies?
Any three, four, five of the above or something other?
