Should handgun training be a prerequisite for a concealed carry permit?

If I am not mistaken, this incident occurred in Florida, correct?

And Florida requires training for a carry license?

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no

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But did this guy have a carry license?

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Are others here suggesting that training should be a government mandate to merely own or possess a firearm? Or, a mandate to rent one even?

The question this thread is about seems to be required training for a concealed carry license.

Some are arguing that this gun control infringement would make us safer, while pointing to this as an example of “see if that state required training to get a license, that wouldn’t happen”…but that state DOES require training to get a license and that DID happen anyway.

Or am I missing something?

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This is the only one example… and to be honest it can be used either way… for or against the training, depending how we describe whole situation.

In majority we agree that we don’t like any permits at all. But if the permits exist (as the OP stated), there should be anything that verifies that permit… otherwise it will be just another ID… which doesn’t make sense.

I’ve been seeing so many people attending CCW classes who doesn’t even know basic functionality of the firearm. That is the scary part. After several classes with such attendees I became an advocate for “mandatory” training for CCW permit.
How somebody can be a responsible firearm carrier if he/she doesn’t have any idea what and how to carry?
Answering that question can somehow answer the subject of this thread.

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I think it is pretty obvious that training makes most (but not all) people safer. Getting more people properly trained will make everyone safer. You don’t need studies and statistics to prove that. It is just common sense.

As I have said elsewhere the 2A makes a mandatory training requirement to own or carry a firearm illegal. So mandating training requires a new constitutional amendment. Though I would like to see firearm safety training made mandatory at the public school level. You must show you are proficient in reading, writing, arithmetic and firearm safety to graduate.

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We have literally decades of experience with tens of millions of people in states that have not, for that entire time, required training to get a permit.

Is real world factual reality not proof enough?

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Common sense gun control, gotta love it.

Who needs statistics, facts, or real life, just say it’s “common sense” and who can argue against that?

(if you can’t tell, I really hate gun control, all of it)

But, a little more seriously, there’s more than one side to this scale/equation.

Ever infringement passed, every control law added, every extra hoop that takes time and costs money, reduces the number of law abiding honest folks who carry. What happens when fewer people carry? More unarmed victims.

To me, more unarmed victims, and fewer law abiding citizens carrying, is a bad thing, and that is just common sense.

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This I like :+1:

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Please don’t compare these days to decades already gone.
We have lived happy lives before 911. Life was different 20, 30, 40 years ago. Those times are gone, that is the past that never come back.
So with current circumstances, when millions people are buying firearms, just because they are scared, I’m OK with forcing them to train before they show up with firearms on the streets.

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I’m talking about right up to this second. Decades into the past, right up to this very instant as I am typing this sentence. Real world actual factual reality.

These times, right now, there are tens of millions of people lawfully licensed, lawfully carrying, in states without training requirements. Guess what, it’s a good thing.

I know you are okay with more gun control. I know you are okay with forcing what used to be a Right into a privilege. I am well aware that the Right to keep and bear arms was a little bit more of a Right and a little bit less of a privilege in decades past. And I despise that and do everything I can to stem the tide of “common sense gun control”

I realize most people cannot be convinced to change their minds about gun control, but, I will continue to try. And I will continue to use the real world as an example.

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I agree that there are tens of millions of people lawfully licensed, lawfully carrying, in states without training requirements.
But on the other hand, there are millions of people lawfully licensed, lawfully carrying without basic firearm knowledge. And that is what I’m afraid of.
Tens of millions of people may know how to stop the threat but I don’t want a single person to shoot any bystander or innocent person because of lack of training. And there are millions of such people.
And this is a real World example, I don’t care about statistics. I do care about people’s safety.

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There is no need to be afraid of that, and the huge amount of real world evidence we have tell us so.

We do not need to be afraid of the uninfringed Right of The People to keep and bear arms.

If you don’t want a single person to shoot any bystander or innocent person, you need to completely ban guns. Seriously. Even that won’t actually prevent it but at least then you can say the person who accidentally shot an innocent bystander was illegally armed when they did so.

If you care about people’s safety, don’t tell them they can’t have guns because they didn’t jump through enough government hoops, pay enough money, and wait long enough.

Disarmed law abiding citizens is not the answer.

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In your opinion what would be the curriculum of a suitable training course? Perhaps the same as USMC embassy guards?

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No… neither disarming nor banning the firearms solve the problem. But education can do this.
And yes, I will be always afraid of being shot by untrained person.
What keeps me far from being paranoid? My own training. My every single training between other shooters is my practice how to avoid being flagged by others. I’m learning avoidance almost everyday.
But this still doesn’t change my thinking - every firearm carrier should be trained by professionalist.

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Here is another real world example.

I applied for a FL concealed carry license (whatever they call it). I filled out all the forms, went and got my fingerprints taken at a police station, had the notary sign, did all the things. I even sent them a proof of training certificate from a concealed carry class.

Guess what happened?

I did all that, spent the money, paid the fine err fee, prints, notary, paid money…and I was denied.

Why was I denied?

My proof of training was not accepted, because the trainer didn’t have an NRA certification number on the cert I sent in.

Apparently a concealed carry class from Frank Proctor (I had many other trainings, this was simply the first cert I grabbed to copy) is not sufficient.

Aren’t we all so much safer now that I don’t have that FL carry permit?

How many other people have had anything like that happen and were denied, or significantly delayed in, their ability to exercise their “Right”?

Common sense at work.

FTW: Frank Proctor bio

https://www.frankproctorshooting.com/about-frank-proctor-shooting/

"I served over 20 years in the military and the last 16 of those in the US Army Special Forces. In 2004 I attended SFAUC- Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat Course. I knew then that being a better shooter would be a life long passion. In between deployments and other duties at Group I was and assistant instructor for Combat Marksmanship, CQB, Breaching and the Sniper program. I later became the NCOIC for the Sniper program and Primary instructor for Combat Marksmanship. During that time I had the privilege to serve with and learn from some great dudes.

In May 2007 I started competitive shooting and found out what I didn’t know about shooting! I started shooting a match almost every weekend and when I failed at something I would work on it during the week so I could see an improvement the next weekend. I joined a range and trained almost everyday sometimes 2 times a day. In January of 2009 I achieved the rank of Grand Master in USPSA Limited division. I was the 4th ranked Limited GM in the world at that time, but still made some mental mistakes in matches. I was shooting at my peak in the summer of 2009 and started gearing up for another deployment. In 2012 I started my training company full time. Most of what I have learned about shooting has come to me since then. Something happened and I took a much more analytical approach to training and shooting instead of the classic just go do it 10,000 times. Looking back to 2009 when I was at my peak as a shooter I didn’t fully understand what was happening or really how to show other people how to do it. I still don’t know everything about shooting and I don’t think anybody knows everything about anything. I believe in having an explorative mind to continue to look for more information to make us better shooters. My current training programs take an easy but in-depth, cerebral approach to becoming a better shooter.

I courses all over the USA (some international) as well as at my private training facility near Talladega, AL. My facility features 11 pistol bays with over 100 AR 500 steel targets. I have 3 dedicated rifle ranges out to 650 yards covered in steel targets. The rifle ranges offer natural terrain such as trees, boulders and vehicles to shoot from. Having this many ranges available allows shooters to get more challenging and effective reps in a shorter amount of time in order to hone the skills to win in any environment. I also have a pro shop on site with all the guns, gear and accessories that I use.

Since childhood I have been mechanically inclined to find solutions. My first job in the Army was a Light Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic and that was my civilian career for about 5 years afterwards as well. I enjoyed the diagnostic and problem solving aspects of being a mechanic. When I received a vehicle with a problem I found it easier to diagnose the problem if I had a full understanding of how things were supposed to work. When I became a shooter I definitely brought that aptitude with me. When I use guns and gear my mind looks for a better and easier way to get things done.

Thanks for reading this and I hope it provides you with some insight into why I do the things I do."

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That is not a topic of this thread. There was another one we spent a lot of time to discuss it…

… but, as quick answer - basics. I actually like IL CCW class curriculum. I’d make some adjustments, like less talk, more shoot, but the main idea is to be comfortable with your firearm and responsible and wise once is used.

So, be trained by the cop that shot himself in the foot in a grade school classroom? Or maybe the cop that pointed a loaded gun down gun counter and shot himself in the hand? Maybe the FBI agent that dropped his gun, doing a back flip while dancing? These were all “trained” individuals. Their training, was decided upon by the local/state/federal governments.

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@Nathan57 … perhaps it’s a bad luck?

It’s always a good idea to have any basic certificate from nationwide recognized Firearm Organization. In this case NRA opens the door. It did for my FL permit. :grinning:

Frank Proctor may mean nothing to Florida Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services and I believe most of Instructors well known by us are not accepted by Departments issuing permits.

In IL we have to go through CCW Instructors verified by State Police, who issues permits. And that make sens to me.
I wouldn’t blame Florida for not recognizing Frank Proctor’s training. His bio is impressive but it doesn’t mean his training allows you to apply for a permit.
It’s the same with other Instructors, including me. We all can have a professional background, million of satisfied students and still not be recognized by Government’s Institutions.

:person_facepalming:

Are we going to have a valuable conversation or just mock each other?

I have to confess - I had a neglected discharge during one class. So what should I do? Pack my stuff and forget about teaching others?
We all make mistakes. It’s just matter of how bad it was and if lesson was taken.

I hope you don’t believe in the words you have just posted and you knew that neither one of that examples taught or was allowed to teach in the future. Even a great school can have a bad teacher.