Constitutional Carry/Sheriffs Notice

Legal & Second Amendment
41

That’s a lot more demanding than the 2 rounds from a 22LR pistol I had to put on paper at 9 feet to meet the requirements for my FL CWL :rofl:

There are not any live fire requirements for a Florida CCL.

I didn’t know Vermont had it for over 100 years. I guess what scares me about Florida, is that we will have a ton of new gun owners carrying concealed now because it’s the new thing to do. And, I think a lot of these people will be very lazy when it comes to training, and learning the laws.

How do you know that, there aren’t any records to back up that specious claim.

that’s why I agreed that there should be government-sponsored training programs on firearm safety, and proficiency.

I can agree with that only if the training is not government mandated.

1 Like
42

I never said that, check who you are replying to first, thank you.

1 Like
43

I agree with the first part that by far the vast majority of firearm owners are responsible. With the likely 100+ million firearm owners in this country if the vast majority weren’t reasonably responsible there would be far more negative incidents every day.

But I don’t think the vast majority of owners have more training than what law enforcement officers have. I know many LEOs have very limited training but in my personal experience there aren’t all that many civilian firearms owners that have taken any kind of formal self defense training outside of the usually incredibly limited training required to get a carry license.

I suspect a pole of folks in this community would show that the majority here have more training than typical LEOs. But folks here are pretty interested and motivated in being the best defenders they can be and likely aren’t representative of the greater firearm owning public.

There are a whole lot of people that buy a gun and a box of ammo, stick them in the drawer and think they are good to go. And then there are the folks that think they know everything they need about self defense tactics and laws because they grew up shooting targets and/or hunting.

3 Likes
44

@wellbonded Don’t confuse formal training with going to the range with your gun of the day and shooting at targets. If your are not under the direction of an actual certified instructor, rather than a “self-proclaimed expert been shooting since I was 12 know more than you do just ask me can’t you tell by how I dress so of course I am an instructor” that guy , you are not training, you are a recreational shooter. And as for saying that “most LEO’s have less training than most civilians” is just not true. I am sure you can find some small rural jurisdiction that is underfunded and conducts annual training for a day. But to cast a broad net and say most agencies have less training than most civilians is just misleading and using inaccurate data.

Before I retired, I was the Training Coordinator/Master LE Instructor for my state level department. We did firearms range training eleven months of the year to include precision, speed, malfunction drills, threat assessment, scenario based, low light and of course qualification. We did hands on Use of Force / Arrest and Control/ De-escalation training 24 hours a year. We also took an additional 30 hours a year of either on-line continuing education. We also attend specialized tactical on-site training. All totalled each investigator and officer in our department was required to complete over 100 hours of required training annually.

So before you start casting a wide net and saying a large majority of LEO’s have less training than a large majority of civilians, do some more research on your stats and don’t insult the intelligence of the members on this forum. And last but not least, going to the range and poking holes in targets is not training, at best it is practice, and usually it is just fun recreation.

I just get sick and tired of all of the anti-law enforcement, anti-cop political agendized rhetoric being spewed by the radical media and radcial left. Yes every profession has bad elements, and law enforcement is not exempt. But it is not the majority of law enforcement!! It is just plastered everywhere when a so-called cop that should not have been hired in the first place (rant on poor background checks to be covered in another post coming soon) does something out of rage rather than following his training.

3 Likes
45

The Pinellas Co. Sheriff’s officce, Bob Gualtieri, accomplished similar

1 Like
46

[quote=“WDB444, post:44, topic:92699”]
“most LEO’s have less training than most civilians” is just not true. I am sure you can find some small rural jurisdiction that is underfunded and conducts annual training for a day. And last but not least, going to the range and poking holes in targets is not training, at best it is practice, and usually it is just fun recreation.[/quote]

So poking holes in a target is unsuitable for a LEO to be qualified to carry a gun?

Do you really believe that, I guess you have been out of the loop for few decades things have changed you need to catch up with the world of modern law enforcement, where there is diversity and inclusion?

Maybe get a clue of what you are talking about and dig into how little LEO’s need to do to qualify to carry a gun and Florida isn’t alone nowadays this is pretty much the standard nationwide.

32 out of 40 holes punched in a paper target equals qualified!

FDLE
FDLE1920×2485 318 KB

Highly trained my fanny.

3 Likes
47

This is the standard qual. So you are saying that this is all of the training that Florida LEO’s get annually? If that is true, you need to address the legislature. But a standard qual does not constitute annual training.

I retired in 2017, and I can assure you the standards I outlined and required were in place when I retired. Now, can’t guarantee.

48

[bquote]Before I retired, I was the Training Coordinator/Master LE Instructor for my state level department. We did firearms range training eleven months of the year to include precision, speed, malfunction drills, threat assessment, scenario based, low light and of course qualification.[/bquote]

Really, well here’s some interesting information for you.

New study on shooting accuracy. How does your agency stack up?

November 21, 2018

The newest study of police shooting accuracy in deadly force encounters reflects the experience of just one municipal department. But to whatever extent the findings can be generalized, the picture is indeed a disturbing one.

Researchers analyzed 149 real-life OISs recorded over a 15-year period by Dallas (TX) PD. In nearly half of these encounters, officers firing at a single suspect delivered “complete inaccuracy.” That is, they missed the target entirely.

In 15 incidents, the total number of rounds fired could not be determined. But in the 134 cases where researchers could establish that figure, they calculated the hit rate, “incredibly,” at merely 35%. In other words, more than six out of 10 rounds fired were misses.

Highly qualified yea right.

49

You are coming real close to calling me a liar there. I will let you get back to your cherry picking of bad stats.

50

I wouldn’t cal you a liar just not up to date on what is happening in “modren” law enforcement.

51

BTW I was certified as a firearms instructor in 1981 and certified as a Training Consular in 1987, a certification which allows me to train and certify others as firearms instructors.

1 Like
52

Let me attempt to divert this before it goes to the floor and furniture get’s broken. Many of us train more and better than some law enforcement agencies do. We train under guys that have been under fire, Purple Heart recipients. Many of us are lucky enough to have the means and the facilities to train for unusual situations. But I seriously doubt, if I took a cross section of gun owning Americans that the Civilians would be better training than the LEO’s.

5 Likes
53

I believe the issue is that equating proficiency with “formal” education is wrong. As I referred in a prior post, papers do not prove anything, but that you went through that training.

Almost none of us will ever have a situation requiring our firearm, much less use of lethal force. We, here, are definitely in the minority as far as seeking knowledge and training. Many LEOs are also in that same boat.

The question then becomes how much “training” is “required” to become proficient? We know that each person has different levels competency, some will never become proficient, regardless of how many “formal” training classes they take. Does this mean that person should not be allowed to protect themselves and their loved ones?

Many here have stated they have varying levels of disabilities and age-related deficiencies. At what point will someone like Mr. LEO judge you and tell you that you are not allowed to protect yourself and your loved ones? Would Mr. LEO willingly turn in his firearms if he is deemed to be similarly deficient? When the shoe is on the other foot, is when one can feel the fit.

We can beat each other over the head with this or just look at the decades of data collected that shows that as firearm laws have been liberalized, it has not increased firearm related injuries and death.

We all agree that if you are going to carry, you need to know firearm safety, laws, and be as proficient and aware as one can be. Everyone of us has levels of competency in those factors in which we have become comfortable enough to carry.

5 Likes
54

I hope they like my sicker I have that says I love the Constituion :us:

2 Likes
55

I have heard several national level advanced self defense instructors cite a number that only about 1% of gun owners take any training beyond their initial CCW or Handgun 101 class. I am not sure, but I think that number comes form a study by Karl Rehn in Texas.

If that is a reasonable estimate, then no, most gun owners do not train more than LEOs.
However, those of us high on the activity of train and practice, the so-called gun culture 2.0 crowd, probably do train and practice more than the average LEO. (Air Marshals and SWAT team members are not average LEOs.)

2 Likes
56

“White, Yellow, Orange & Red” - Awareness is the largest factor. Be able to avoid conflict, if not possible know your correct action for the situation.

2 Likes
57

Dunno where you grew up but by the time I was in my twenties I had looked down the barrel of more than 1 gun, both good guys and bad guys.

58

Hi TwelveBravo.

I think most or all of us who post here are 2A supporters, or else we wouldn’t visit this community.

I do wish that some of the requirements put on us were more affordable for those who are on a tougher budget, take - a single mom, or fella trying to take care of his elderly mother.

Personally, I put value in permits and training. Partly because I think some take the education and training more serious than others, and go on to take it to another level and teach dozens if not hundreds of others over their life time - on responsibility, and rights.

I wish there was review or proposals for possible faster tracks to “own” in case some might be more vulnerable, such as domestic violence victims.

When I read the back of form 4473 back ground check, those backgrounds listed as “questionable”, make sense to me. But that’s JIMHO.

I guess like you, it’s not up to me as one individual, but if enough people want something, then it’s meaningful, even if I might not agree with it. Who am I not to hear them out, and who are they not to hear me out.

Where does that lead us? Differences of opinion. I wonder though, for certain laws, should we we leave up to the states, or should they be federal? IDK. Creating state laws might be easier to accomplish because fewer people debate them.

Just because something is law, does not mean it is automatically anti 2A. 2A supporters can also help create laws. I’ll be the first to admit, I need to help our cause, and “do more”, and be more active.

Perhaps someone within this community is already a legislator, whether it be city, county or state, or will some day run for office. That would be way cool.

1 Like
59

@Scott52 Oh definitely. Mindset is definitely an important aspect of carry concealed.

3 Likes
60

Sure, enjoy range days though. Never consider it work but enjoyment. :us:

1 Like