So, you are in favor of the 2nd Amendment, but only for people who meet standards that you agree with?
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I donât make the standards that are to be agreed upon so no. But I believe people should be proficient in the weapons that they carry. I also understand not everyone can afford to go to the range often, thatâs why I agreed that there should be government-sponsored training programs on firearm safety, and proficiency.
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But doesnât âGovernment-Sponsoredâ equate to Gun Registration?
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I would say no to registration. Just government-funded. They supply the ammo, pay for instructors, pay for the info-commercials. Get everyone educated and proficient. Be great for national defense too. 
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Constitutional carry/ permitless carry meme.
am also a former Colorado resident, and the required training (once class every 5 year) was a joke.
I knew several âtrained officersâ that provided security for the city court that had to pass a test once a year. That required 50 round at 15 yards standing with gun in hand and 50% of the hits in the round black area of the target. It was never from the holster. Required training will not prepair a person for use of a weapon. Requiring a permit has never stopped a dirt bag from possessing a firearm.
Colorado took the full 90 days to issue the CCW permit. I did the requirements for a Tennessee permit and received my permit to carry in other reciprocal states in 10 days!
When I trained other students, the ones required to take the class were only interested in meeting minimum requirements. The others were there to learn.
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I believe they should be proficient in their temperament! These days, tempers flare at the drop of a hat, or worse, with a âyes sirâ or âyes maâamâ in the event that either one is not what they are!
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I havenât applied for a CCW in CA but from talking to folks who have, CA, the strictest state in the union, has a similar type of course. The nasal droning is more than 30 minutes, however. It is at least four hours as best I recall from my conversations with participants. I suspect it depends upon how much time the âInstructorâ licensee wants to spend on the paperwork. If he is somewhat conscientious, he probably spends a little more time than the guy who is only in it for a fast and easy buck. Wait until the fast buck guy gets counter-sued by a âstudentâ who, to his chagrin and dismay finds out that an important part of gun laws in CA â I think the book describing just the CA gun laws written by an attorney firm that specializes in gun law defense and acting as plaintiffsâ attorney in gun rights cases â is like 475 pages longâ omitted a very important part of the code. Sure, you can cover it in 2 hours, yeah, right!. It took me at least that long just to skim some of the highlighted portions. It probably takes that long to turn that many pages without even looking at them.
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I agree, Stan. Yessiree, Bob! I fully support the Second Amendment, except that . . .
Sounds like some politicians I have heard about. Sounds like my half-witted son. âI support the Second Amendment. In fact, I own guns but nobody needs an AR15.â
Dear Old Dad, âYouâre right. We donât need AR15s. What we need is M-4s with select fire. We also need M240âs and 105 mm howitzers together with M-1Abrams if we can afford them with the full complement of weaponry. TOWs, Javelins, RPGs, Hawkeyes and other anti-aircraft missiles.â
And in light of the way the government seems to be headed, I think our Founding Fathers would completely agree with me.
I always get a sort of pained chuckle out of âSecond Amendment Supportersâ who believe in their right to carry but not for others. Iâm sensible and can carry. You are not and therefore should be prohibited." And, of course, the old ârivers of blood will flowâ boogeyman. The answer is quite simple: Use a gun illegally, go to prison for a very long time. Ir wonât take many well-publicized sentences to get the word out. And, by the way, prison doesnât rehabilitate. That is like making a drunk go to AA sessions. If the drunk isnât willing to cure himself, no amount of AA sessions will make him give up Ole John Barleycorn. The felon has either committed to going straight before day one of his sentence or not and in most cases it is not. Trying to ârehabilitateâ him is a waste of time and money. Just look at the success rates of various ârehabilitationâ schemes. Just a chance to some politician to reward a relative or termed-out buddy with a lush government grant. Seem jaded? You betcha! Twenty-five years of working in court will do that to ya.
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The most important thing I learned in the Utah class were these 5 words âWe defend lives not stuffâ
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True most of the time, Mike but there comes a point where one must draw a line. That varies with each individual and with each legal jurisdiction.
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Mark Smith, the attorney who runs The Four Boxes Diner channel on YouTube, believes that we should advocate for permit less carry, not Constitutional Carry. One of his arguments is that our rights are not given to us by the Constitution, and it is therefore sending the wrong message about where our rights to bear arms are derived from. He argues that permit less carry demonstrates that our right to bear arms is a natural, GD-given right that precedes any government. The Constitution doesnât grant us that right. It highlights what the government canât do and affirms what we already have by virtue of being human.
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Iâm retired Army (active duty, Reserves, and Guard) so I was exempted from the requirement to attend ANY training. I think thatâs a horrible decision and it put me at a disadvantage from the very beginning. I could have benefited greatly from the classroom portion of the course that should cover the law and the dos and donâts. However, the officials in Florida and Pennsylvania (where I lived for a few years and also had a CCW permit) both mistakenly believe that military personnel are the unmitigated experts in all things gun related. Itâs obvious those people never served nor ever asked. We know how to handle and operate a select set of weapons on a range and IN COMBAT against enemy combatans. Not a one of us ever received training in carrying a weapon concealed into Walmart. I felt behind the 8 ball from the get go and had to read and understand the laws on my own.
Now, imagine someone with NO experience or training in the safe operation of a weapon turning 21 and going out to purchase their very first âcoolâ pistol that they will walk out of the store with, stick in their pocket or waistband, and drive away. Itâs going to happen. The best any of us can hope for is that nothing goes wrong.
This is such a stupid decision and I fear itâs going to circle back on us someday.
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Welcome @Andrew259 and thank you for your service. I agree with you that it seems odd that you would be exempted from even the classroom portion that covers or should cover state laws. Your experience is invaluable and an worthty of recognition. But it is apple and oranges when it comes to carrying concealed in the civilian world. Now for some more irony, I too am a military veteran (8 years USAF), but also a 26 year retired state level LEO and a master firearms and use of force instructor. That being said, I have an HR 218 nationwide carry certification available to retired LEOâs . I am required to qualify every year at the same standard and course of fire as active LEOâs in the state where I reside. I also am required to recertify my Use of Force and De-Escalation (8 hour class) every year. Even though I taught these disciplines when active duty as a LE Instructor, I am required to qualify and recertify every year. I am not complaining, but seems ironic that a retired LEO and instructor is required to maintain standards while someone with no training or experience is. But I can carry in any state, so the standards have to meet other statesâ requirement.
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Welcome to the community @Andrew259
While I agree that proper self defense legal and skills training are vital I donât believe permitless carry is such a stupid decision. Especially given how incredibly inadequate the vast majority of the training requirements are for those that are forced to pay fees and take âclassesâ to get their self defense permission slips.
Though I believe it would have been smart to include funding for public service announcements and free/cheap classes when passing these laws. TV commercials and adds talking about the legal responsibilities of armed self defense and the consequences for not knowing them with links to the relevant laws as well as online and in person training options would have been a very smart idea. But most politicians arenât very smart. They are just pandering for votes when they arenât busy enriching themselves.
Will there be a few more moronic incidents because a few more irresponsible untrained people decide to carry firearms without a permit? Probably. But there are already a whole bunch of morons and criminals carrying firearms illegally without permits. There are also going to be more than a few more incidents of people who are able to defend themselves because they were carrying a defensive tools. The problem is the main stream media will try to blame every bad incident on these âlaxâ gun laws and will refuse to cover any of the incredibly greater number of times someone uses a firearm to legally defend themselves. But they have been doing this and will continue doing this regardless of permitless carry laws.
If the anti self defense folks truly cared about reducing firearm related deaths they would be working with pro self defense folks to make safety, skills and legal training more available and affordable for everyone. But since their true goal is actually to make law abiding citizens as defenseless as possible it is left up to us pro self defense folks to work on ways to increase the quality and availability of training. We should be putting more effort into that goal.
Groups like the USCCA are an important step in that process but we need to cast a much wider net in order to connect with a much greater audience.
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I think no matter what my state would decide to do in this area, The good choice for me is to continue with my permit. Have been carrying over 15 yrs. now. During my time on active was involved in operating rifle and pistol ranges when my unit would do it yearly qual. Have always believed that those who carry should be training regular. Many times, I have been the family RO. See the mistakes that new and inexperienced carriers can make. Train, Train , Then train some more. stay up on laws.
Have the best of days WB444.
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It seems to come down to this:
Take a class or not
Require a class or not
Teach the law in a class or not
Shoot a gun in the class or not
And nobody agrees/likes what the ârequirementsâ are. AND Who Decides what those âRequirementsâ are? Not fire arms âexpertsâ, not trained soldiers or LEOâs, nope not them. The ones that call the shots are⊠You Guessed it, Ducking Politicians.
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âI carry with a CCW permit, and the permitting process already doesnât have enough training in my opinion. I think itâs highly irresponsible to let people carry without a permit. Iâm afraid that brandishing charges in Florida will increase, as well as gun violence in general. I think if you ask most officers/deputies, this is a bad idea, and makes law enforcement only harder.â
I doubt that to be true, by far the majority of gun owners are responsible and actually have more voluntary training then what law enforcement officers are required to have.
Florida will increase, as well as gun violence in general. I think if you ask most officers/deputies, this is a bad idea, and makes law enforcement only harder.
The numbers do not bear that out, by a large majority the Sheriffâs in Florida (63 out of 67) supported the bill and I can assure you out of the Democrat run s-holes on Florida the LEOâs did as well.
Also by the way Florida does not issue carry permits, however they do issue concealed weapon or firearm licenses.
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I think itâs highly irresponsible to let people carry without a permit. Iâm afraid that brandishing charges in Florida will increase, as well as gun violence in general.
Have you been drinking the anti-gun kool-aid of what?
That kind of activity has nothing to do with licensing or training for it is a mental health problem and a very hard to predict one.
It is also a very good reason to have a concealed carry law like the one that was just passed the reason being one of the best ways to calm such a hot head down is a few rounds center of mass.
I think if you ask most officers/deputies, this is a bad idea, and makes law enforcement only harder.
I have to agree with you, my last renewal class might as well had a drive-thru lane with a kids playground.
To the husband/wife running that joint only saw money making opportunities, they could care less about state laws or dos/donâtâs. I felt bad for the USCCA rep that was there.
That would not be relevant to Florida we do not require additional training for license renewal.