Concealed carry unloaded into a no weapons location when I don't have lockbox in truck

Legal & Second Amendment
61

I, personally, believe in personal responsibility. I also believe in egalitarianism, a founding principle of our formerly great nation. Police, DAs, judges, and other “officials” can legally carry CC and imbibe in restaurants and bars in Virginia, and likely in other states, too. They are nothing but civilians like the rest of us, yet have been granted special privileges by law. If you want people not to drink while armed, I agree, it is not wise, but a law will not prevent it, just as drunk driving laws have yet to prevent that.

If a person commits an act that harms another or someone’s property, that should be punished. If a person imbibes an alcoholic beverage, that in and of itself, should not be a crime. It isn’t for the privileged class, so it should not be for the rest of us either.

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62

I had a snap safe product. You could literally pick the lock in less than five seconds with a wooden coffee stirrer. No thanks.

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63

Thanks for the link to the Ohio Revised Code. What does section C mean? Does it mean if there is injury or death because i had to leave my firearm in my vehicle, the business is not liable? I hope I’m misunderstanding that.

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64

I’m not a lawyer, but I take it as a “waiver” to excluded the business or property owner from a separate civil suit (aside from you & victim) against them meaning if the firearm is used by you or a thief breaks into the vehicle and uses the weapon. But not if business or property owner intentionally instigated the altercation in which the victim was injured. Hope this helps.

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65

I don’t know which State you live in but it’s not illegal to leave a firearm in your car or truck in most States. It’s not directly under your control so could be considered irresponsible.

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66

Attention Street Lawyers!!! If it is posted, "NO GUNS ( or the universal circle with a slash across a gun), YOU are not being a responsible law abiding gun owner, PERIOD!!! Do not try to split hair’s and state something stupid, like the sign was off by an inch, or the sign does not meet the guidelines in the statue. EVERY Judge and lawyer will tell you there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Don’t try to be a street lawyer or a know it all. YOU will be making EVERY other responsible law abiding gun owner look bad.

The sign doesn’t indicate “NO FIREARMS” and you get to make the rules like I will just keep it unloaded.

“YOU” are the one making all the other responsible law abiding gun owners look bad. If you get a serious ANTI GUN business owner that wants to demand enforcement action, you are not the one in charge. You do not necessarily get a free pass by telling the judge "I did not want to leave it in my car, so I unloaded it. REMEMBER you can still get convicted of an ARMED bank robbery with an unloaded gun or even a water gun.

I get it, you do not want to be disarmed. However when they are in charge. YOU are not!

Find another place to do business at that is not anti gun, or take the risk and secure it in your vehicle.

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67

Play it safe legally, that way you can “carry” on. Prepare the options, locks, storage, don’t be “that” business’s patron, help change the laws, or if your’e diplomatic - politely inform them – you take your biz elsewhere.

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68

no business

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69

In my state, the business cannot do that as a “No Gun” sign does not carry any legal weight, therefore, they are NOT in charge. Neither does someone not abiding by the “intent” of a sign make the rest of us “look bad”. If the business is not following “the letter of the law”, it makes them look bad/stupid, not the firearm owner not abiding by an illegal dictate. That is not being a “street lawyer”, that is knowing one’s rights.

Aside from that, if one is CC, then no one should know. I had a person that has the right to CC under LEOSA tell me that they ignore most signs because they are allowed under that act to do so. So if that person was found CC (which would be lawful in most GFZs under that act), how would that make the rest of us look bad?

That is sound advice, though sometimes not possible. Try to find an alternative to the USPS.

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70

I do not know what state you are in. I can tell you that in Fl, if it is properly posted with the state statute, at minimum you can face trespass after warning charges (the sign is your warning). I cant speak for your friend that choses not to abide by the signs. Although there is a probability that he wont get into any trouble, he needs to read all of L.E.O.S.A and HR218. I am a retired LEO with 38yrs of service. My ID and Qualification card clearly states L.E.O.S.A. on it.

It is clear in the law (L.E.O.S.A. /HR218), that if it is posted, QRLEO’s (Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers) do not carry the weight of active duty and are not protected, period. If it is posted a QRLEO has Zero rights, powers, or privilege’s and can be charged.

I cant believe you could question “how would that make the rest of us look bad”.

As a firearms owner you should know, whenever anyone gets into legal trouble with a firearm (even if that individual gets vindicated), there is ALWAYS guilt by association.

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71

I guess I’m lucky, I’ve had no reason to go to a post office in years.

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72

Only if you chose to feel guilty.

As to LEOSA, those that have it, have more rights than a private citizen with a CC and are legally “allowed” to carry many places a private citizen cannot. You should be quite well aware of this having a LEOSA permit. If you do not understand this, you need to read the laws of your state and the exemptions provided by the LEOSA.

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73

I am trying to be helpful, not adversarial. Instead of just knowing your rights and the law, It is important to know that Murphy’s is always in effect. You never know when you may get a LEO that does not know the law or is vindictive. I was detained by 6 port authority LEO’s while declaring my off duty piece in La Guardia airport right after HR218 was enacted (I was active then and not retired). I knew I was 100% legal (I had traveled there to Identify my fathers body). This did not stop a Lieutenant from ratcheting his handcuffs telling me that he was sorry but I was being arrested for violating the Sullivan Law. One of the six was a rookie, he kept telling the Lieutenant that he was wrong that I was Legal. The rookie BEGGED the Lieutenant to go back to his office and look up HR218. He stated that he was not going to be part of any false arrest lawsuit for a civil rights violation. After he got back, he told me I could go. Regardless of the outcome I was still happy I did not have to endure what could have happened.

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74

Also L.E.O.S.A. is not a permit. It is a federal law and to say the least a bit of an inconvenience . For me to be in compliance (even after my retirement) I need proper Agency issued ID after retirement and I need my valid proof of my annual requalification. You may never need to requalify under your civilian permit. For me to keep my L.E.O.S.A. privilege’s active, in addition to my agency issued ID I still need proof of a proper compliant ANNUAL certified requalification done by a certified active Police Firearms Instructor.

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75

You are lucky, we don’t have a mailbox in or near our neighborhood. And I dislike leaving important correspondence in our mailbox with the “flag” up to our subpar mail service. We also send a lot of things to our kids & grandkids. Yes there is fed ex & ups but they are at least 20 miles away and my wife is 71 and I’m disabled… the nearest post office is less than two miles away, so you can see our predicament.

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76

Let’s clear up a few things:

In some states, IT IS ILLEGAL. There are states that will take away your right to carry if you are found carrying in a gun-free zone.

Know your state’s laws and the laws of where you travel. The USCCA Reciprocity Map is continually updated with the latest laws. You can find that here.

The parking lots of post offices, national cemeteries, federal prisons, federal courthouses and federal buildings are all included in the “No Firearms” restrictions. You can see more about that here: https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/resources/federal-ccw-law/federally-banned-locations-for-carrying-firearms/?link=CommunityCarry_Unloaded

One more thing to keep in mind: never state that you will violate a law of any sort in writing in an online forum. If you do, you are stating that you are willing to break the law when it suits you and that can (and will) be used against you if you ever have to legally defend your physical self-defense actions.

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77

LEOSA is the law (act) that provides you with the means to obtain the permission to CC under which it is granted. You are issued ID that certifies you have said permission to carry, i.e., a permit. If you do not qualify annually, you get your permission to carry revoked, aka, license, permit, whatever.

So, would you agree that if someone “qualifies” annually and is not a person that is covered under LEOSA should have the same entitlements as another that does? Or do you believe that there is more than one class of citizens in this country and there are those, such as yourself, that should have more rights than the rest of us?

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78

Hi Dave, You are trying to understand this as if it were a permit. It is not. The ID that is required is just your department issued retired ID card. Nothing gets “revoked” just the concealed carry privilege is inactive during any period without the annual proof of requalification The documentation / eligibility is indicated on the Retired ID card.

If the card was issued during the Bush Administration when HR218 (The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act L.E.O.S.A.) was first placed into law. That basically Indicated the retiree had a total of 15 cumulative years of service and separated in good standing. Believe it or not, when HR218 was enhanced under the Obama Administration, all the other related acts and house rules were brought into and under L.E.O.S.A. Obama shortened the 15 year period to 10 years among other enhancements (unbelievable for an anti 2A president).

L.E.O.S.A. ID is not without issues. It is my understanding some agencies have refused to issue the necessary ID cards. It is my understanding that on every law suit to get proper ID the retiree has prevailed. Many retiree has run into serious roadblocks in getting requalified. Many agencies refuse to take the liability and refuse to do the requalification.

Some states place serious roadblocks in the requalification process. The state I retired to Tn. created sooooo many roadblocks. They annually require an application to the states Department of Homeland Security, annual FBI re-finger printing, annual background checks, then when permission is granted you have the nightmare of getting a local (or not so local) agency schedule to requalify you. Tn requires the agency to give you an 8 hour class if the requalification is within 365 days or a 40 hour class if it is over 365 days. For my first requalification it was cheaper and much easier for me to fly back to the state I retired from and requalify. You can not shop what state you want to go to, to make it convenient, it is only where you retired from or the state you reside in.

I was fortunate to eventually find a Federal certified Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor that met the federal requirements under L.E.O.S.A. and 18 USC 926C that was also able to obtain permission from the state of Florida to give the Florida re qualification to recertify here in Tn. This instructor is able to bypass the roadblocks put in place by the state of Tn. Annually this instructor does lots of Florida retiree’s.

In regard to your last question, I do not think there are different classes of people, I believe in constitutional carry period. If a Tn. LE retiree is willing to forgo the additional privilege’s afforded in L.E.O.S.A. they can get a Tn. LE retiree enhanced lifetime permit for $100.00. I travel with an RV a lot so I choose to put up with the inconveniences to make sure I am covered. Although I do not believe there are different classes of people, it is my opinion in general that there is a probability that most LE retirees do have a higher degree of firearms training.

There are also states like Hawaii that will ruin your vacation. They require a L.E.O.S.A. retiree to check in with the state police there (just to let them know you are armed there). It is my understanding that this is like a several hour long process where you must wait there and not leave until after you get their approval / acknowledgment.

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79

Dave, You still do not understand.

L.E.O.S.A. DOES NOT provide the means to obtain or request permission from anyone.

The retired officer NEVER needs to apply for or request any permission from anyone ever PERIOD.

You do not get it, I am retired, I do not work there any more, they are no longer my bosses period.

L.E.O.S.A. is basically just a statute that documents an eligibility standard.

L.E.O.S.A. is the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act. This law was to provide additional law abiding responsible trained armed SAFETY for everyone, the public, by having additional trained citizens, current out of area LEO’s, former retired LEO’s, referred to as QRLEO’s (Qualified Retired Law Enforcement Officers in the law) and the officers family friends or associates the QRLEO might be with.

If a speed limit sign says 55, drivers do not need to request for permission from anyone to do 55 to be compliant with the sign.

The standard is this simple.

For retirees it is this simple, do not read into this. READ THE LAW and the tons of legal interpretations posted by attorneys. L.E.O.S. A. basically states, if a retired LEO has ten years cumulative service under his or her belt and retired in good standing the retiree is eligible under the law period.

Got it, the retiree needs nothing else to be eligible. PERIOD.

To be compliant (not eligible) , when carrying concealed the retiree under the law needs their documentation. That is their agency issued retired ID and proof they qualified annually, PERIOD.

The retiree is no longer an LEO. The retiree’s former agency is out of the picture (except for the possibility of extending the courtesy of assisting with requalifying).

The only issue that can disqualify a retiree under L.E.O.S.A. is a disqualifying event like the retiree becoming a convicted felon after retirement for an example.

It is this simple, 1). retired, 2). in good standard, 3). with 10 years cumulative service. That is your permission. No begging or applying to anyone for anything PERIOD.

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80

Hence, permission. Without the ID - no permission.

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