My VA clinic has the same signage. I think it has been around for some time though. Upsets me every time I see it.
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In South Carolina all medical facilities are no gun zones. That is Dr. offices, dentist, hospitals and diagnostic centers.
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Correct, however that’s four steps to get to that point of me committing the crime trespass:
- I give them a reason to cause them to determine they want me to leave
- I refuse to leave
- They call police
- Police respond and I still refuse to leave
For me, it won’t even get to step one. If they and everyone else does not know I am carrying, we all get along just fine.
My point in pointing out that their signs have no effect of law is that there is no law prohibiting my carrying on their property. I and others who carry on their property are not committing trespass. Their sign is just a signal as to one of many reasons why they might ask someone to not be on their property.
As a private property owner, they absolutely do have the right to make a determination that they do not want me or anyone else to be on their property for any reason. With this, my statement still stands… if I am carrying on their property, I am not committing any crime, including trespass.
As I stated prior, when I go see my doctor I secure my gun in my vehicle as I know I could have an exam. When I go to the same facility for prescriptions at the pharmacy or to accompany my other half to her appointments, I am carrying.
I believe there is no single standard, or “right and wrong”. Everyone’s mileage may varying depending on their state and local laws, and where they receive their healthcare.
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Perhaps true, however, you are violating their rights. The right to carry ends at their door. While each may decide to do as they please, it does present itself as disrespectful to the other party, the property owner or business owner who has declared their property or business to be ‘No Guns’.
This is the part where blood seems to squirt from eyeballs.
We are supposed to be responsibly armed Americans, and to me that would include respecting the rights of others, and if we do not have a right to carry on their property, we are not lawfully carrying on their property.
Just something to ponder.
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I do not carry in my doctor’s office. I have known one friend who was asked to change doctors after the doctor (or his staff) found out that he is a gun enthusiast.
I have seen a questionnaire that amidst other “lifestyle” questions in the middle of the form innocently asked if you have guns at home… Why is it their business?
In today’s climate of “Red Flag” laws, they could feasibly say “because he/she is on anti depressents, we feel he/she is a threat to themselves or others”.
So on guns at the Doctor’s office, absolutely not and mum’s the word.
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Hi Jeremy,
Welcome!
I’ve discovered that office staff have been groomed to flinch on firearms issues, at least at my primary care physician office. I fixed that by going “off body” in a laptop case. No one has questioned that to date. Let me know if that works for you.
Ross8
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The state attorney general meets with all the instructors and one thing he said stuck in my mind.
He said “we (as responsibly armed Americans) need to be respectful of the store owner or property manager’s wishes but also, store policy does not dictate state law”.
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Is the key.
It may not dictate law, but law is not the issue.
If we as Second Amendment advocates, we as responsibly armed Americans, want to be respected and have our rights respected (even if there is a lack of respect from the other side)… we would need to also show respect to others.
While you may not be subject to a chargeable offense, no law is violated, if there is a no gun sign, that should be respected. Those who try to split hairs and say if the sign does not meet legal requirements, they can ignore the sign… are missing the big picture.
Our Right to Carry ENDS… at the door to the business. Technically, we do NOT have a right to carry inside their business, legal no gun sign or not.
In my state, there is no chargeable offense, if they have a no gun sign and you are disrespectful enough to carry inside anyway, and you are caught, they can ask you to leave, and if you do, no problem… if not, you may face trespass charges…
So, which is it, we only want our rights and intend to deny the rights of others? Or we honor their rights, secure our firearm in our vehicle while we are in the business… whether we are in the waiting room or the exam room.
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I see your point. So if there is a “no gun” sign I am to assume that the store owner will be responsible for my safety? There are some business owners around here that removed the signs when attorneys pointed out that they coulf be held liable.
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That is not really a valid argument. You are still the one that chooses to enter the business.
NOBODY can protect against every unknown.
The basic fact is, if our right to carry ends at their doorway, their threshold… their property line… we truly would not be carrying legally in their business, regardless of any laws.
Now, if a state has legislation that puts a burden on the business to provide security, other than the standard safety issues like wet floor signs and keeping debris out of the walkways… but actually provide physical security from criminal activity and / or terrorism, that would be different and the business would need to meet the criteria set forth in the law.
No offense to @MikeBKY, but most lawyers I do not trust. Far too many fail to actually understand the law… sure, they understand how to manipulate it, and it is sad that it must be manipulated… but actual laws? There are good lawyers and bad ones… just like everything else…
Anyone can be sued for anything at anytime… and some lawyers we used to call ‘ambulance chasers’… they will try to sue even when there are no valid grounds… you can sue, but that does not mean you will win.
You, the individual, still choose, freely, to enter the business and the business did not force you to enter. I think you would be working from a negative position.
So, let me ask, do you sue the car manufacturer if you drive down the road and something happens, you have a tree fall on you or you skid on slick roads? Do you require a sign to say no skid zone?
Personal responsibility. You, make the choice to enter the business, you are free to make the choice to NOT enter the business.
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Here is Kentucky law regarding the duty of a business to its customers, or the legal term “invitees.”
Generally speaking, a landowner is not exempt from the overarching duty of reasonable care that pervades our negligence law. “The concept of liability for negligence expresses a universal duty owed by all to all. And every person owes a duty to every other person to exercise ordinary care in his activities to prevent foreseeable injury. A customer of a store, when on that part of the premises where customers are expected to go, is an invitee.”
More specifically with regard to the invitees, we have routinely held that “landowners owe a duty to invitees to discover unreasonably dangerous conditions on the land and either correct them or warn of them. Of course, possessors are not required to ensure the safety of individuals invited onto their land; but possessors of land are required to maintain the premises in a reasonably safe condition.
This is from Dick’s Sporting Goods, Inc v. Webb, 413 S.W.3D 891, 897 (Ky. 2013). However, this is generally accepted law under common law and the Restatement of Torts.
A person, including a corporation, does not have a legal duty to ensure your safety. Even more so, they do not have a duty to protect you from a “superseding, intervening cause” and the criminal act of another person has almost always been considered a superseding, intervening cause. If you see a no gun sign on the door, you can choose to visit that store or go to another. Consider the sign your warning that there might be a danger inside which is unknown both to you and the store.
And remember, if you want the government to force private persons, including corporations, to protect your Second Amendment rights on their private property, be ready for the government to tell you that YOU will also be required to allow people you do not want in YOUR HOME to express their First Amendment rights in your home.
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Thank you @MikeBKY
It’s good to hear this from you. It changes the way I look at things.
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I didn’t consider myself “disrespecting” a store owner if I carried (concealed) in a store that had no signage posted.
I just mind my own business.
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No gun signs in Kentucky generally do not have the force of law. If you carry on their property and you are asked to leave, you leave. I do not see it as disrespectful either.
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If there is no signage, they are not saying no and they are not saying yes, but the default is yes.
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If our right to carry ends at their door, if they have posted a sign for no guns, they are posting their rules, their right, to have no guns in their business.
We technically do not have a right to carry in their store, so to me it is being disrespectful to the business owner if they say no guns and we carry inside anyway.
Yes, there is no chargeable offense, though they can ask you to leave and you must leave, the basic point it there right to not have firearms in their business is being ignored if we choose to carry inside regardless .
If there is no sign, that is taken as a default guns allowed.
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Florida laws may or not prohibit it, but I’m going the conservative route and do not carry in a hospital or medical facility.
Florida Statute section 394.458 states that “except as authorized by law” it is a third degree felony for any person to bring, carry, possess, or transport a “firearm or other dangerous weapon” Upon the grounds of any “hospital (or mental health facility) providing mental health services.”
Since most of these facilities generally provide mental health services, it’s probably better to assume that all of them fall in this category.
However, Florida Statute 790.06(12) lists all the places a person cannot carry a firearm with a CWL and hospitals or mental facilities are not on this list.
(12)(a) A license issued under this section does not authorize any person to openly carry a handgun or carry a concealed weapon or firearm into:
1. Any place of nuisance as defined in s. [823.05]
2. Any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station;
3. Any detention facility, prison, or jail;
4. Any courthouse;
5. Any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom;
6. Any polling place;
7. Any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district;
8. Any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof;
9. Any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms;
10. Any elementary or secondary school facility or administration building;
11. Any career center;
12. Any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;
13. Any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile;
14. The inside of the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or
15. Any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
Loophole? Maybe, but I will not be the one testing it.
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One of the reasons I love Kentucky! We allow on-duty, off-duty and retired LEOs to carry at all times in all places in the Commonwealth with the exception of correctional facilities with out the permission of the warden.
I had to see a dermatologist a few years ago for some thing on my leg. I had a concealed weapon that the doctor never would have seen until he asked me to take off my shirt to check my chest arms and back. Before lifting up my shirt, I advised him that I was a retired LEO and had a concealed weapon. He thanked me and did his exam.
I love Kentucky, although I am getting worried about Louisville.
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Most secure their firearms before entering… even the guards generally do not carry inside, and only outside beyond any potentiality of a guest of the facility obtaining a firearm that they should not have possession of.
Have family in Kentucky, some near Louisville… I think it might be gone.
But there is still Paducah and Grayson, Ashland and Cannonsburg, Lexington… and other towns.
Many family from WV also, so …
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Under the FWIW heading: Alabama is pretty much the same as KY. I know a limited number of business owners and have asked about their signs or lack of. The consensus seems to be one of a liability protection help if someone is injured and not so much a desire to disarm. Most have said they have not asked anyone to leave except when another customer has complained. I’m of the mind set that unseen means no disrespect incurred, In all the years I’ve carried no person has ever noticed my firearm or at least its never been pointed out to me. I’ll leave if ever asked, but find that highly unlikely to happen.
BTW-- I won’t go into a Starbucks armed or not.
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