A shotgun for HD/SD.... Why?

Just about! :+1::+1::+1:

BTW that round never exited the target!

2 Likes

I’ve always thought that shotguns and rifles are for defending against tyranny and hand guns are for defending the castle. In between tyrannical globalization pushes, shotguns and rifles are good for training and sport.

2 Likes

A lot of it depends on the castle. The right tool(s) for a condo in the middle of a city might not be the right tool for a farmhouse in the middle of 200 acres.

First develop a HD plan, look for strengths and weaknesses and have a strategy for every contingency you believe likely.

THEN figure out what the best tools to execute on your strategy are.

5 Likes

Excellent advice. And might I add that I work with “active seniors”. Some of which have chosen a shotgun for themselves. Not a lot of clients/students have the monetary resources to go out and choose this handgun or that revolver or can stay current with the latest offerings. Some have had that shotgun for years and that’s all that they have. For those folks, I meet them where they are and we work with what they have.

I’ve witnessed plenty of active senior ladies operate a 20 or 12 gauge shotgun just fine.

Stay safe out there.

4 Likes

Hey economics plays heavily as a factor for some and you can buy a decent shotgun for under $200 all day long! And good for you for making it a viable option for these folks!!!

3 Likes

Little late to the party here and didn’t read all the responses. My thoughts:

I have no shade to cast on an AR pattern rifle or Mini-14 for HD.

Whatever you choose, it goes without saying that you should practice with your HD weapon, so being a novice shooter should only be an issue shortly after purchase. Either you will like it and build proficiency with it, or you will discover that it is not for you, or maybe there is something in between, but you get the idea. I don’t expect my wife ever to take to a shotgun. I have a semi-auto shotgun in a quick access safe, but she’d prefer the Rossi trapper in a different quick access safe.

That’s if you can even get to the safe. Most likely weapon at hand is going to be a handgun.

Magazine limitations in Massachusetts, not to mention your increased risk of zealous prosecution if employing a pre-ban mag in an actual home defense encounter in the Commonwealth, levels the playing field a little bit. For that matter, if you just want to maximize your chances of being prosecuted by an activist DA, the AR pattern rifle with a pre-ban standard magazine is arguably the best choice for Massachusetts. The guy(s) who broke into your house with the intent kill, rape, kidnap, or whatever will be instantly transformed into your innocent victims.

Even tactical shotguns configured as long guns tend to be a bit large, a bit unwieldy.

A reliable semi-auto shotgun is probably better than a pump for most people operating under stress unless they are very well-practiced with the pump action.

A determined home invader shot center of mass with a handgun may be mortally wounded but completely unfazed by it for up to a half a minute. A less well-placed shot may be irrelevant to the encounter. This is less likely with hydrostatic shock from a 5.56 round, but it does happen, especially if you use bullets that are designed not to over-penetrate, like varmint ammo. Use the wrong ammo in your AR, and you might be able to hit an invader several times without stopping him.

I would not employ slugs for any kind of social work with a shotgun: maximal recoil, maximal wall penetration, limited wound channel for gauge. Birdshot is a dubious choice as well, unless your distance is like 3 feet. Buckshot makes better sense to me, say #4 buckshot if over-penetration is one of your concerns, 00 if not. Depending on your choke, it will expand to 1.5 to 2.5 inches at HD ranges, which is a lot larger than a slug. Law-enforcement experience shows a single hit to center of mass is a fight stopper virtually every time. THAT’s why a shotgun for HD, if you can get past the unwieldy size and higher recoil negatives.

3 Likes

I love Paul Harrel and the meat targets!

My point though wasn’t that .223/5.56 won’t go through walls. It is that it goes through less walls than other comparably effective rounds like 00Buck, 9mm, .45ACP etc. And it goes through way less walls that “real” rifle calibers like .308, .30-06 etc which have double or triple the mass/energy. Especially, as @Enzo_T points out, there is a wide variety of appropriate projectile in this caliber that fragment quickly and would reduce penetration. Anecdotally (meaning I read it on the internet), pretty much every SWAT unit in the country has switched over to the AR platform from PCCs like the MP5 and one of the reasons for that switch is less worry about over penetration (one of the other primary reasons is extended range over a PCC).

I don’t want to pull away too much from this thread, but I wrote (a lot, sorry!) on the subject in the following thread with examples and comparisons done by others. It is helpful to see how they compare to each other, not just “does it go through a wall”.

Because the reality is that anything that is consistently capable of incapacitating an intruder will very likely go through every interior wall you have until it hits something solid like some furniture, a stud, or an exterior wall.

I also wrote this miscellaneous explainer on AR defensive ammo in general, scroll down a bit for overpenetration

A bit of searching on Youtube will yield a lot of videos of people shooting through drywall with various calibers. Most of the tests are pretty “meh”, I highlighted good ones in the links above, but there may be some newer ones as well which are worth a look.

2 Likes

I haven’t read much about tactics here. Employing a long gun in a HD situation implies shooting from a defensive position and not, say, clearing rooms. That could “color” one’s choices.
Firing over or around an obstacle gives an advantage to shorter barrels, quicker target acquisition and other considerations are worth considering if you’re looking for such a mission specific firearm.
Or you could just learn to use what you already have.

1 Like

I find it sort of a wonder that everyone talks about the benefits and drawbacks of pump-action shotguns but no one (so far in my reading of this thread) has opened a discussion of SEMI-AUTOMATIC SHOTGUNS.

IWI produces the Tavor TS12 @ *https://iwi.us/product/tavor-ts12*/ @ a 28 1/3" long (THINK ABOUT IT in a tight home scenario) 12 gauge BULLPUP gas-operated 15+1 with 2 3/4" shells (9+1 with 3 3/4" shells) tactical shotgun proven in the field by the IDF. Reports are it kicks like a mule but isn’t the objective to deny he/she/it the opportunity to kill YOU?

As observed throughout this thread, poorly trained/experienced/prepared citizens need every edge they can get. Wouldn’t 16 rounds of moderate buck as-fast-as-you-can-pull-the-trigger suffice to deter/mess up a malefactor pretty well?

Forget the “body armor” issue. Very few home-invaders can afford or be bothered with the expense or the restrictive/sweat-factor. Aim for the face/crotch. With mostly ANY shotgun you’ll survive while the bad guy either dies or lives to regret.

A bruised citizen will heal; a dead citizen, not so much.

3 Likes

Agreed. A modern semi-auto shotgun is almost as reliable as a pump gun, and easier to shoot. Even basic ones, like a Mossberg 930, or Stoeger M3000 work well. The Mossberg can even be had in a 9 shot model.

2 Likes

I don’t know about semi autos, but racking one into the chamber with a pump is an attention getter and as good a warning as a deep growl from a german shepherd. As for using a shotgun in your house, it does a lot of damage to the property and may cause some collateral damage to the family. However, so will a 9mm if it goes trough the plasterboard wall separating the rooms in your home. I prefer a handgun with pump as a backup. The handguns I keep close are a Sig P226 and a Charter Arms revolver in .44 Special. The shotgun, what else but a Remington 12 Gauge Model 870.

1 Like

I’ll play the Devil’s Advocate this time, just to stir the pot.
A SxS with double triggers is even more reliable than a pump action.
You can’t short stroke a SxS
A SxS with separate triggers is essentially two shotguns so if one should fail for any reason, you still have another working, a back up in your hands already pointed at the perp.

5 Likes

Doesn’t Brandon recommend a SxS? Should be “Two Blast Brandon”. :slightly_smiling_face:

3 Likes

Brandon recommended an O/U with a single trigger. :laughing:
Single triggers are known for getting wonky at the worst of times.

3 Likes

But, can you get a SxS with a bayonet lug?

3 Likes

Duct tape.

4 Likes

And, it adds a little bling to that old fashioned artillery.

4 Likes

Not my primary, But it is in the line up. But as you say I don’t think that would be the first choice I would put in the hands of first time shooters here. But an yet for some its their first choice. For those I would say if it works It works :us: Yeah Shotguns do produce colateral distruction

2 Likes

A first world problem, where you can afford to buy multiple guns, duplicates of guns, all kinds of guns based on your whims and/or thoughtful consideration. Guns used to be built one at a time and at great expense by a gunsmith, and be handed down from generation to generation.
Historically a rural dweller would rely on a shotgun or musket for everything from home defense to hunting to putting down old lame Dobbin or blasting a henhouse raiding fox. The musket would also be presented at militia musters for homeland defense. Very wealthy hunters might afford rifles when rifled barrels became available, but muskets and shotguns were long the norm, especially those high capacity shotguns with double barrels.

Urban dwellers had burglars to deal with and likely bought pistols when manufacturing practices made them available. Pistols were more easily secured by urban dwellers than long arms, which would most likely be secured in the farmhouse in an armoire or cabinet, if not hanging above the fireplace mantle.

3 Likes

Yeah, Thats on point right there. :us:

2 Likes