I have Frangible rounds for mine. I doubt they’d make it very far after they hit something.
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I agree
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I haven’t seen any tests of .223 frangible rounds. I know frangible rounds in hand guns have very poor performance but the .223 should be better depending on the bullet design? I have mags loaded with a non bounded Federal tactical round designed to not go through barriers well but that does meet the minimum FBI standards. These are for the unlikely event I need to use a rifle in my home. I have some bonded Gold Dots ready to go for outdoor situations where a little more penetration might be required.
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As a rule of thumb .223/5.56 will have LESS penetration that a pistol caliber.
If penetration is the ultimate concern, shotgun birdshot is the best bet by far. I think then its a tossup between .223/5.56mm and #4 buckshot. Then 00buck and pistol calibers. Shotgun slugs are next, and finally actual rifle calibers like 30-06 penetrate everything.
I know this is a shotty thread, but a good fragmenting (NOT frangible) round for .223/5.56 like the TMKs make a great choice balancing very little penetration with very effective terminal ballistics.
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Think the original purpose of this thread was to get people to think about the pluses and minuses of all the different tools. So your post is right on topic and I would say your analysis is spot on based on all the tests I have seen.
I am not familiar with the fragmenting 2.23/5.56 rounds. Will have to look into those. The non bonded soft points I have are recomended for LE agencies looking to avoid unintended penetration in urban settings.
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I like bonded soft points, personally. They’ll maintain their expanding performance through barriers. And the best way to prevent penetration issues is to hit your target. In the event of a miss, the low mass of these rounds helps keep that to a minimum (not as much as birdshot, but pretty good).
There’s a couple different fragmenting rounds. The most common is the Sierra Match King (SMK) which is an Open Tip Match (OTM) usually in 69gr or 77gr. This round is very accurate in most rifles and fragments pretty well, but only with enough velocity. Even though it has what looks like a hollow point, it does not expand. The military Mk262 is based on the SMK (or maybe the other way round?).
Then there is a newer Sierra Tipped Match King (TMK), I believe I’ve only seen it in 77gr. It has a plastic tip where the OTM is. While also very accurate, maybe not quite as accurate as the SMK but thats really splitting hairs. It fragments violently but the core retains enough weight to get adequate penetration. It fragment even at lower velocities so its great for short barreled use. Folks use it for hunting as well, so there is a lot of real world experience with it.
Both the SMK & TMK are available from several manufacturers. Black Hills makes fantastic loads for both. IMI makes a great SMK load they call it Razorcore. I’ve seen a few smaller manufacturers making loads for them as well.
Here is a video using a Corbon loading of the TMK out of a 10.5" barrel. There are plenty of other tests on youtube as well…
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Thanks for the info. I prefer the bonded soft points myself. Just keep a few of the non bonded around for potential in the house use since I do have one neighbor’s house within 50 yards of mine.
I just joined the shotgun club for sporting clay purposes but did pick up a couple boxes of slugs and buckshot just to try out. Seems to me that #1 buck would be a good balance sufficient penetration without over penetrating. But #1 seems hard to find compared to #4 buck and 00 buck.
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Several issues come to mind re: shotgun use. 1. Action of the gun: Double, Auto, Pump, Single, Bolt Action. 2. Familiarity of the shooter with the gun. Shooters reaction to the recoil. 3. Control of the weapon. 4. Spread. 5. Damage to property and non participants. Rack a pump shotgun and it demands attention. It may not have to be fired. A short barreled Coach Gun is easily handled and maneuvered, even in tight spaces like a bedroom or kitchen. All these points are totally dependent on the person using the weapon and I may have missed some other points. I, personally, prefer a large capicity handgun in the home, but I have a double 12 gauge close by, Keith.
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Amen. Thank you!
As is true for most if not all HD/SD decisions. Once the pot starts to boil all we can do is assess and react.
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Absolutely! Train, train, train and then train some more. You can own the fastest production car in the world. But if you’ve only driven it in your driveway…. what’s the point? If you can’t run it to its capabilities it’s just an expensive decoration.
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Sorry for the late reply but I’ve been at my beach place doing important stuff like fishing . I was around when In Cold Blood was written and read it then. I believe you are not truly understanding my points, probably due to my poorly written description. Regardless, I never implied or said “isolated”. I live in a small, 20 house subdivision, around a small lake. There is one way in and out. I live in the last house where only road in/out dead ends. There is a 1000 acre hunting club beyond that is strictly controlled access. Anytime unknown vehicles or persons enter the neighborhood a “heads up” goes out and people are watching. We ‘know’ when people are going out of town and we check each others homes and keep a watch. So no, I do not feel isolated, but along with my own personal security devices I do feel that the odds of me, personally, experiencing a home invasion are indeed minuscule. As I said in my opening post “Here is how I view Home Defense. Note: This strictly for me in my location.” Therefore I try to be realistic and put the majority of my focus and preparation on the areas where I see the highest chance of need.
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So… why would a shotgun be a better option for indoor use in HD/SD scenarios?
Over penetration. Rifles especially are notorious for over penetration. An AR-15 shooting .223/5.56 or most any other traditional rifle round can go through multiple layers of sheet steel found in a car and still prove lethal on the far side (yes, you can shoot through a car with .223). If you live in an apartment complex or any multi-family residential housing over penetration is a HUGE consideration. Remember, responsibility follows the bullet. If you shoot at an intruder, miss, and the bullet goes through the wall and kills the neighbor’s child in a crib in the apartment next door you are responsible for that death. And despite the intruder, I doubt it will be considered self defense.
The arguments against using a shotgun typically are around size and recoil management.
I bought a Mossberg Shockwave with a bird’s head stock for home defense. I took it to the range with a box of 00 buckshot military grade ammo. It was horrible. I could barely hold onto the weapon. In short, it was uncomfortable to shoot and my wife would NEVER be able to get off more than 1 shot. After that the weapon would be on the floor.
I tried #4 buckshot and the gun was much more manageable for me, but I still wonder about my wife.
So, I bought a box of Aguila minishells (buckshot) and the Mossberg adaptor. I have increased capacity, reduced recoil, and a round that’s still highly lethal at any indoor range in my home (10-15 yards at most - 30-45 feet). Remember, indoor shooting ranges inside a home are limited to clear line of sight within the home and are quite limited. With a side saddle doubled up and increased capacity, I have 20 rounds of Aguila mini shell buckshot available to me. If I need more than 8 rounds and have to reload I’m in a firefight, not a home invasion. If I need more than 20 rounds, there is a serious issue and over penetration is the least of my worries.
Personally, I think that a shotgun, particularly a double barreled shotgun is a good HD weapon because it’s hard to mess up. There is zero chance of a jam and most anyone can fire it. By adjusting the ammo and size of the shotgun recoil can be easily managed. It has distinct advantages when it comes to over penetration potential as well. But it’s one choice in SD/HD weapons. And these reasons are the same reasons I like a revolver for a HD weapon. Chances of a jam are next to none, if there’s a misfire you just pull the trigger again, it’s operable by almost anyone, and if you need more than 6 rounds you’re likely in a firefight, not a HD situation.
These are some of the reasons I like and recommend these types of weapons. Especially if the owner isn’t going to be training with them regularly. Shot cycling a shotgun can be a problem in a high stress situation. Misfires from poor grip or other user induced problems in semi-automatic weapons in high stress conditions also isn’t unusual. The more complex the firearm, the more training should be done to ensure competence in difficult situations. Reducing complexity and adjusting the weapon for the conditions can allow a novice to be able to protect themselves effectively while reducing the chances of issues during the encounter.
Just some thoughts… and not really a debate/argument, just some thoughts on why a shotgun might make more sense than a rifle.
There are other potential reasons dealing largely with perception of others which aren’t necessarily a ‘legal’ or ‘tactical’ reason to make those choices, but it is a potential strategic reason to make that choice. Specifically, a defendant in an ‘anti-gun’ state/county/city/area is far less likely to be viewed negatively with a traditional S&W revolver than a full sized Glock w/ tactical flashlight and a red dot. Same for a pump or double barrel shotgun vs. an AR-15 style weapon. I’m not arguing against ownership of anything, only that perception is a potential factor that might be another consideration.
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I will split hairs with you a little bit on this point, as I think its a common misconception and we’ve had chats on it off/on in other threads.
A true “rifle” round like a .308, .30-06, etc will absolutely go through a ton of dry wall and most exterior walls (including brick) like a hot knife through butter. A typical round here is between 120-220gr and moving between 2500-3200fps and generating near 3,000ft/lbs of energy.
But the typical AR-15 using .223/5.56 ammo is not that. It is a very lightweight bullet (between 55-77gr typically) going usually between 2500-3200fps and generating a little over 1,000ft/lbs of energy.
Since it has very little mass, it tends to lose its velocity very quickly when encountering any resistance, like drywall. The slower it goes, the less lethal it is. Yes, a .223/5.56 round will go through several layers of sheet metal like in a car, but so will pretty much any pistol round. Proper ammo selection, like using a fragmenting round (NOT frangible) instead of ball ammo or a barrier-blind round like a bonded soft-point, will further reduce the risk of over-penetration in .223/5.56.
To bring it back to the shotgun for HD/SD, if penetration is a high priority then birdshot is king at the expense of effectiveness in an intruder. #4 Buck gives a good balance of effectiveness and not too much penetration. #00 Buck is the most effective but each pellet has almost the same penetration as a pistol round (which is a lot).
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Agree with you and @Harvey that #4 buck appears to be a good compromise round between having enough penetration vs too much penetration for inside the home defense. Though I have seen tests where some #4 loads do not penetrate enough in gel due to pellet deformation so do your research.
On the double barrel suggestion, I prefer to have more rounds between reloads. Facing 2 assailants would require a 100% hit rate and against 3 bad guys I guess you are going to have to count on over penetration and your targets lining up for you or time to reload. I have never had a failure from my pistol with an extended magazine. But if I was worried about failures I would go for a 6,7, or 8 shot wheel gun.
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This is a test where both FMJ and Hornady Critical defense was used out of a M1A1 platform and went through 3 walls - 2 interior and an exterior wall then penetrated ‘soda jugs’. This is around the 7 minute mark in the video.
While .223 can be less lethal, it’s still a lot of energy and for me personally, I would be concerned with over penetration.
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Another vote for #4 buckshot. 00 will over penetrate, and, I’ve personally shot through a 4x4 post with 2 3/4 inch foster slugs.
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My recommendation for double barrel shotguns would be primarily for those who don’t maintain and train with their HD weapons. The simplicity and ease of use in a high stress situation is highly beneficial - and their effectiveness would vary depending on the intent of the intruder (robbery vs crimes/harm to you/yours). But let’s be honest - if you’re on this forum, then chances are you don’t fall into that situation. 
What we choose and why we choose them will vary wildly. While I own/have owned more than one single shot shotgun in a variety of gauges/calibers I would never consider one viable for home defense except in the most unlikely of circumstances. However, they do make for great guns to learn to shoot shotguns and develop an appreciation for shooting. 
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Probably no other round has been as analyzed and developed and counts with such a HUGE variety of commercial made ammo with a huge variety of projectiles available as the 5.56/.223.
From ultra fast projectiles like the thin jacketed 45gr HPs that if you drive them to spin too fast (1:7) will actually fragment in mid air and never hit the target to big SD bullets meant for penetration at long ranges like the 77gr.
Blanket statements, like “rifle rounds over penetrate” do not apply here because it’s impossible to take into consideration ALL available flavors of .223. There is a flavor of .223 for EVERY application/circumstance out there. I have probably 4 different types of rounds in separate magazines in my bug out rifle bag making my AR one of the most versatile rifles I own…
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A few points to consider. .308 bullets are normally 2-3 times the weight of a comparable .223 round. Second, FMJ ammo is meant for extreme penetration and Critical Defense bullets in the .308 Hornady offering are 155gr meant for penetrating medium to large game, so they sport heavy tough jackets.
Definitely not a fair comparison to, as an example, a light thin jacketed .223 bullet made to basically disintegrate when hitting something as small as a prairie dog at 500 yards.
A final point, caliber is no indication of lethality. A few years back a buddy of mine gave me a hard time when I told him I took a doe using my coyote gun, a .223 heavy barreled Remington loaded with 45gr hollow points. He started lecturing me on how those bullets do not penetrate enough to reliably kill a deer. I think he should have waited until I told him I shot the doe right behind her ear and she dropped like a rock right where she stood. After I mentioned that he just said, “Oh, Ok.”
“Lethality” is based strictly on understanding and training to the capabilities of the weapon and ammo by a capable user and employing them effectively while recognizing limitations of any of the parts of the equation. I can’t think of any ammo that is intrinsically less lethal than any other. It’s all about the user…
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Shot placement trumps everything else.
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