Thanks for the clarifying that information.
Cool, thanks for the info.
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Alway 1 in the pipe, a full magazine in the firearm and a full spare magazine.
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How many carry a gun for X number of years and never use it? I think carrying an extra mag is logical. If someone does not want to, I got no problem with them.
I would really like to know the stats on that, and who keeps them. ā¦
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Lots is just a guess, but probably pretty close to accurate.
But if we could not findā¦
ā¦would we all really still be carrying? 
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Letās talk apples to applesā¦how many private citizen concealed carriers have used a handgun for self defense in the United States? Ever? That we know of. Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? More? Into the millions by now?
How far off from 0 is that number?
Think about how lopsided that comparison is
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Honestly @Nathan57 I canāt prove if anyone reloads in a self defense situation. And I have not seen you post any stats showing they donāt.
Carry how you are comfortable.
I will do the same.
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Okay.
The below list is the definitive, proven reference of every single known case of a private citizen concealed carrier using a reload for their carry gun during a DGU:
āend list
Yes, absolutely, carry whatever you want, as I have said before. There is nothing wrong with making your carry choices based on emotion. Sometimes feeling safe really is what matters. If a spare mag makes you feel good, go for it!
@Nathan57 - We are all in the same village learning from each other. I am not sure the point you are trying to make. We are a community, no matter what. We can disagree or agree. In the world we live in, we have had riots in the streets- our capital being over-run, our Government in shamble, the Economy is free-falling, inflation rising. I say this to you- I will stand with you because you are free to choose what is suitable for you. What makes us Americans are the freedoms and power to create our destiny. I will lend my hand to help as I hope you will lend yours. I am here on this form to learn, listen and build a better community/bridges.
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We sure are.
The point I made was that a spare magazine is extraordinarily unlikely to be used, and some other things that people may carry, including a non lethal alternative, or first aid, are much more likely to save a life.
I suggest evaluating what you choose to carry with that in mind.
I carry 2 tourniquets, a quick-clot 4x4, a 12-ply 4x4 gauze pad, a 2-pack of chest seals, mini trauma shears, flashlights(2), a leatherman, a mini sharpie, a space blanket, and sufficient bandage tape to be creative if necessary with the gauze, a few band-aids because they actually get used, one in the chamber, concealment mag topped off, and 2 spare mags.
I donāt carry anything non-lethal because if I am in any kind of danger that doesnāt rise to the level of serious bodily injury or death I am just getting out of there.
We live in a highly litigious society that is rapidly eroding the rights, safety and security of individuals. The only non lethal deterrent I feel safe using is a flashlight in the eyes and an assertive voice.
If you pepper spray someone you are responsible to ensure that they donāt run head first into traffic so you canāt run away anymore. If you taze someone you are responsible to monitor their vital signs so you canāt run away anymore. A knife or bludgeon of any kind is lethal force. Pushing someone down to the ground is potentially lethal force. Striking someone is potentially lethal force. While all of these situations might be more acceptable to a jury if the other person does die or get seriously injured, all of them come with risk of serious bodily injury or death and if the person does die, you are on trial for murder.
Non lethal options are useful for security guards and police officers who are charged with detaining people who are resisting them or who are endangering others or property. As a private citizen it is almost never lawful to detain or restrain someone or use non-lethal force on them.
My understanding is that the only lawful defense for citizens is to run away. If a citizen has no ability or reasonably high percentage option to retreat, then the assault and battery, manslaughter or homicide they commit can only be determined to have been lawful by a jury of their peers.
Engaging in any use of force carries with it the danger that you will be in front of a jury and potentially lose your rights to defend yourself in the future, or possibly get life in prison. This is why organizations like the USCCA are necessary.
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I carry the Sig P320 with one in the chamber and 14 in the mag. With 2 spares of 15 each I figure 45 rounds is sufficient.
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In every state I am aware of, reasonable force is lawful in self defense. The vast majority of circumstances that justify force will justify non-lethal force, as lethal force is less common. Pepper spray is an example of non lethal.
I am aware of no requirement for a private citizen acting in self defense to babysit a person after pepper spraying them. Where do you see that requirement?
Absolutely true
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This is the sticky part. At what point is it determined that a private citizen was acting in self defense? Only if a jury decides that they were acting in self defense and used proportional force to defend themselves.
The person you pepper sprayed who continued to chase you was hit by a car and killed as they chased you. You are arrested and charged with manslaughter because nobody saw them assault you and there is no evidence that they did, but there is objective evidence that you battered them with pepper spray before they chased you. You are directly responsible for their impaired vision which led to their death.
You might get prosecutors who believe you were in fear of injury greater than pepper spray and might allow you to plead out with aggravated assault which is a felony conviction, so you no longer could possess even pepper spray to defend yourself in your own home in my state.
Your best option would be to face the jury on charges of involuntary manslaughter, which would be a felony carrying a prison sentence of up to 30 years in my state.
The idea of non-lethal force is a logical fallacy. Any force is taking risk that you are causing serious bodily injury or death.
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That seems like a bit of a stretch.
If they are presenting an imminent deadly threat, possibly a firearm is the correct response. If they are not presenting an imminent deadly threat, a firearm is most certainly not the correct response.
Edit: Not sure if I understand that part correctly, so Iāll rephrase to: Check your local laws, but, lethal or deadly force will have a definition and it will be differentiated from non lethal or ordinary or whatever phrase they use.
What is your state? Maybe we could take a look at your specific state laws regarding use/levels of force?
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https://le.utah.gov/xcode/title76/chapter2/76-2-s402.html
Take a look at this Utah State Law. Around here I can stand and defend.
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Utah has some fine laws. And a mighty fine non-resident permit. 
I never said that.
The only response that is legitimately non-lethal is running away. If something is preventing you from running away and you are being threatened with physical violence of any kind then that is a threat of serious bodily injury or death.
If you can escape by pushing someone down or hitting them with your body without causing serious bodily harm or death, then that is your best option, and that would be simple assault, not a felony. If you knocking them down or pushing them out of the way is not enough to escape then they are dangerous and psychologically committed to doing whatever it is they are meaning to do with you, pepper spray isnāt going to stop them, it is likely to just anger them so they hurt you more.
Iām not saying people shouldnāt carry pepper spray or tazers, Iām saying they are not necessarily less than lethal, and using them comes with disproportionate liability for their practicality.
If someone is just trying to rob you, give them your money and run away. If someone is trying to hurt you, try to run away. If they wont let you run away do not fool yourself into thinking it is a less than lethal encounter.
Let me clarify. I am not arguing that using pepper spray would be illegal in any specific case, I am arguing that using pepper spray a) is potentially lethal anyway and carries the same legal and civil risk as any other use of force and b) isnāt more effective than asserting yourself without it against people who are actually dangerous.
The goal is to stay out of situations where you need to use any force at all and do everything in your power to not need force. If you need force at all that means there is a threat that requires incapacitation to stop.
a) Pepper spray is not lethal force (in any US state I am aware of), and carries less legal risk than using a lethal force option like a knife or gun.
b) Will vary person to person. In many cases, it is physically/physiologically effective. In many other cases, it is not. Searching YouTube or wherever else will show many examples of both, and everything in between.
Itās certainly not a requirement to carry, most people donāt, and even if used, it may or may not work. It is a very different tool from a firearm.
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Thanks, that actually helps me articulate my point.
You canāt just go around pepper spraying people because they annoy you or want to take your lunch money. You are responding to a threat of violence because you were in fear of serious bodily injury or death if you are lawfully pepper spraying someone as a private citizen.
Since it might not even work to protect you, in the cases where it doesnāt work, you have made your situation worse. You now have a dangerous psychopath that you have caused irritation and pain. In the cases where it does work thatās awesome, but are you willing to take the chance that the person who tries to rape or kill you hasnāt been pepper sprayed before half a dozen times?
If itās not a dangerous psychopath who wants to rape or hurt you, the situation can be de-escalated by asserting yourself and running away or by forfeiting whatever possession you have that they are after and running away.