YES, this is a concern

Miscellaneous
62

I understand all that… my point is that it could have been a good self-defencse, but prosecutors who are willing to ignore facts and charge you and then put you in front of 12 of HIS peers can still get a conviction. If is is a true criminal act, then, of coarse USCCA shouldn’t pay. And the language says nothing about any of this…

Here is the reply I got from customer “service”:

"Hello Danny,

It is true that the Self-Defense Liability Policy issued to and held by the USCCA includes a condition allowing for Recovery and Recoupment. It also specifically excludes coverage for criminal acts. The recovery and recoupment provision gives the insurance company the ability to recoup amounts paid in the event an insured was convicted of a criminal act.

Why? Because insurers are generally prohibited from providing coverage for intentional criminal acts. Thus, the insurance company cannot and will not provide coverage for criminal acts.

I think all responsibly armed Americans would agree that if what was initially presented as a lawful act of self-defense turned out to be a black and white first-degree murder, the insurance company should be able to recoup payments.

I hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, please let me know. Have a great day and thanks for being part of the USCCA.

Mike P
Customer Engagement Manager
Support@uscca.com
877-677-1919"

I think this, too, is a weak answer.

2 Likes
63

I disagree. I think USCCA has given the answer they can give before a potential future event reaches its conclusion.

One can disagree forever about the “rightness” of a conviction, but a conviction will drive the ultimate response - not whether the conviction is universally seen as valid, right or true.

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64

I am assuming good intent.

I don’t know that Tim is an attorney.
I will guess that Tim is following the lead of his counsel and insurance companies on these changes. To Mike’s point, I work in insurance, and as soon as a member goes through the situation you’re all concerned about and the USCCA’s insurance company tries to recoup, there will be news and youtube videos describing it. I haven’t seen that. Have you? When that happens, the insurance company will start losing revenue, because new policies and renewals will dry up. I don’t see that as likely.

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65

I always like to look at things with different examples to help put things in perspective.

If you get in a car crash with another vehicle, your insurance company pays the other driver for property damage and medical injuries, and pays your car loan off, and any medical issues you had… And then it is determined that it was all caused by your road rage and smashing into the person, I can totally see how the insurance company would try to recover their paid claim money’s.

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66

I think that’s an excellent analogy. Thanks, @Fizbin.

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67

Yes, I did read this when signing up, and I don’t want to be repetitive of the many responses here, I would like to make a personal point but first why does USCCA pop up at a google search, it’s called Search Engine Optimization… but that is for a different topic.

I chose this insurance for the ‘what if’ scenario…nobody knows what is going to happen in a bad situation, I am sure there will be plenty of blame to go around.

I just attended the Crossroads of the west Gun Show here in Phoenix, and I would like to say, regarding Covid, that it was very well put together. My point is that the only representation regarding this type of coverage was Attorneys for Freedom. I have sat on a few occasions at gun shows and listened to Mark J. Victor expound and I will say he is a great orator. I was curious as to why USCCA did not have any representation, it would seem to me that this would be a great place and a perfect opportunity to display their product.

The only person talking was Mark J. Victor. I believe that he is a good attorney and that his motives are in the correct place, however, I did not trust him on a personal level. I trust my gut more than anything.

If I were ever put into a position where I had to pull a trigger to defend either my family or myself, I can say without a doubt, I would have exhausted every option. I would never accept a plea bargain, and that is what Mark makes his argument about, he does it on the video and he (personally witnessed) done it in person.

I would like to know why USCCA is not represented at gun shows, is there something we don’t know about?

1 Like
68

The reason we’re not at gun shows is the sheer volume of shows. We work with numerous ranges and retail partners throughout the country as well as affiliates, instructors and regional salespeople to help get the word out about the USCCA.

No nefarious or secret reasons why we’re not there. The number of gun shows just makes it impossible to be at every show. :slight_smile:

3 Likes
69

This is the reply I got this morning from customer “support”.

Hello Danny,

It is true that the Self-Defense Liability Policy issued to and held by the USCCA includes a condition allowing for Recovery and Recoupment. It also specifically excludes coverage for criminal acts. The recovery and recoupment provision gives the insurance company the ability to recoup amounts paid in the event an insured was convicted of a criminal act.

Why? Because insurers are generally prohibited from providing coverage for intentional criminal acts. Thus, the insurance company cannot and will not provide coverage for criminal acts.

I think all responsibly armed Americans would agree that if what was initially presented as a lawful act of self-defense turned out to be a black and white first-degree murder, the insurance company should be able to recoup payments.

I hope this helps, and if you have any further questions, please let me know. Have a great day and thanks for being part of the USCCA.

Mike P
Customer Engagement Manager
Support@uscca.com
877-677-1919

3 Likes
70

The member agreement has changed this year. Early in the year, USCCA removed the self defense coverage from the member agreement and, instead, includes a reference to the new SELF-DEFENSE LIABILITY COVERAGE FORM. The new form is underwritten by an insurer and follows standard ISO guidelines.

Keep in mind, the member agreement can be changed at anytime without notice.

Amendments or Changes to Membership Agreement
USCCA reserves the right to change the Membership Agreement terms at any time, without notice to Primary Member or Secondary Member. USCCA shall post the most recent version of the Membership Agreement terms on its website, and the Membership Agreement terms on USCCA’s website shall constitute the current, binding, and enforceable Membership Agreement. Primary Member and Secondary Member agree to be bound by the terms of the then existing Membership Agreement posted on USCCA’s website.

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71

My response on my question, and to be 100% honest, I consider this weak at best… volume of shows? really how about volume of gun owners…

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72

@Danny28, I disagree with you. I believe this is a reasonable statement.

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73

I should also say that the recoupment terms are standard insurance policy language. Intentional and criminal acts are generally not covered by insurance. I am not saying the changes made by USCCA are a bad thing, but they are different than what they were before. While notice of the change is not required, it would have been helpful to provide some notice.

Based on my past research, USCCA is still a better choice then the plans that will reimburse you after your acquittal. And they provide MUCH MORE than just insurance. What has your life, health, homeowner’s or auto insurance carrier done for you this year except maybe given you a $50 refund for not having driven your usual 15000 miles in 2020?
And Attorney’s on Retainer, for about $400 a year, only provide you a lawyer “when self defense is reasonably claimed.” If they don’t think it is self defense, you are on your own. And you must pay for your own experts, bail and expenses.

As with any purchase, insurance or other, you need to look at what you are buying and evaluate this based on your needs and requirements.

One thing no one has mentioned is that the insurance benefits from your USCCA membership are now equal at all levels at the prior level for the Elite membership. The big differences in today’s membership resides in the training an education included with each member level.

The USCCA helps responsible Americans like you prepare for what happens before, during and after an act of lawful self-defense. In addition to offering education and training, the USCCA has purchased an insurance policy that provides the association and its members with self-defense liability insurance. These benefits provide more than 530,000 USCCA Members with the peace of mind.

Claims Coverage

Self-Defense Liability

Insurance for Claims
Expenses & Damages

$2,000,000 Each Claim Limit

$750 Per Day for Loss of Earnings (Subject to Each Claim Limit)

Defense Coverage

Self-Defense Liability

Insurance for Defense
Expenses

$250,000 Defense Expense Limit

$6,000 Incidental Expense Limit (Subject to Defense Expense Limit)

$50,000 Cost of Bail Bond Limit (Subject to Defense Expense Limit)

Self-Defense Liability Insurance Policy issued to the
USCCA, by Universal Fire & Casualty Insurance Company

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74

Sometimes the threads get confusing… do you mean @MikeBKY (I agree), or USCCA moderator (I don’t agree)?

75

Rick, there are hundreds if not thousands of gun shows --you expect the USCCA to pay for a booth at each one??
PLEASE NO! That will just increase dues!

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76

I sell insurance. We can’t cover criminal acts.

1 Like
77

comprehension is one thing, learning that a plea deal the lawyer could get me to defend me could also lead to the organization seeking recuperation is another. I was falsely under the belief that the organization was here to protect and defend their clients and wouldn’t see such a deal as admission of guilt but a means to stop certain areas from their attack on a concealed carrier who was forced to use their pistol.

Basically, I’m screwed because the majority of courts in my state would love to lock me up for life for using a gun to defend myself and that ANY deal to lessen the charges is the best I could get…and therefore, this insurance is useless to me if they deem such a plea deal as admission of guilt and seek recoupment.

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78

ACLDN responded to my request if they would require a member to pay back fees if a plea bargain is reached resulting in a misdemeanor rather that a felony.

“ Dear Mark,

Thank you for your interest in Network assistance to members. No, we would not ask a member to repay case funding that resulted in an offer so favorable that the member decided to plead to a lesser charge.”

–Gila Hayes [ACLDN]

1 Like
79

Me and mine were members of the ACLDN for 2 years… my only concern was that you had to find you own attorney… here at home, …no problem… traveling… problem.

80

While true, there are far too many innocent people sitting in prison, due in part to corrupt prosecutors, corrupt judges, and/ or poor defense attorneys.

If you acted in self defense, but a prosecutor and judge who are both anti-gun, convict you… it seems to be counter productive to have insurance coverage that requires they recover expenses due to prosecutorial malfeasance.

If however, you committed an obvious criminal act, it would not be expected that any coverage would be forthcoming.

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81

Problem is, if you are innocent, a plea bargain puts a guilty tag on you, and you only have their word at first that it will be a misdemeanor.

The USCCA Magazine has had articles about plea bargains…

Fight for your innocence.

6 Likes