So I got off the phone with a rep from USCCA and got a very unsatisfying answer of “that’s confidential and talking about cases violates attorney client privilege”. Here is the question. If someone accidentally carries into a building with a no firearms allowed sign in a state where the sign holds a criminal charges (like Ohio), will USCCA defend that case?
The reason I got thinking about this was the recent Indiana mall shooting. Indiana signage law is non-enforceable. They can ask you to leave and if you don’t it’s trespassing, but there is not a crime of violating signage law. Last I checked Ohio had criminal signage laws. Let’s say that Indiana shooting took place in Ohio and the good Samaritan was a USCCA member. Would USCCA still defend him? Also, let’s say he was just carrying in a mall and there wasn’t a shooting but he got arrested because the security guard noticed him printing and called the cops. Would USCCA defend him against a criminal signage law case?
I might be asking this in the wrong forum so please point me to the right direction if I need to ask this elsewhere, but the phone reps response was less than helpful when asking this question to her.
What would USCCA define as legal use of a firearm? A shooting is always homicide unless it is to be found in self defense in pretty much every state. What prevents a scenario where someone is being charged with murder for a self defense shooting and USCCA says “murder is a crime so we won’t cover you” even though the person acted lawfully.
I’m looking for more of a reassurance than “trust us”. Indiana already has a self-defense immunity law, if USCCA is picky about how they cover cases, what use is their membership to me?
According to the USCCA website:
“NO WEAPONS ALLOWED” SIGNS ENFORCED?
Question: Are “No Weapons Allowed” signs enforced in Indiana? If yes, violating the sign would be considered to be a crime. If no, violating the sign would not be considered a criminal offense.
Answer: No. “No Weapons Allowed” signs are not enforced in Indiana.
Q: Would the self defense liability insurance policy purchased by the USCCA, on which members are additional insureds, kick in and provide coverage in the event a member was involved in a lawful act of self defense while carrying in a location off limits per state law? (for the act of self defense)
A: Potentially
Violation of a state carry law is not in itself necessarily and automatic disqualifier (is not an exclusion).
So it would depend on the totality of the facts and circumstances of the individual case and final decision rests with the Universal Fire and Casualty Insurance Company
If arrested and charged for carrying illegal? That would not seem to be a lawful act of self defense
It is correct that the signs are not enforceable in Indiana. I have talked to the guy who wrote a lot of firearm walls in Indiana. He equates Indiana’s no firearm signs to having a no Tom Brady jersey policy. A company can have a policy of whatever they want but it still would not be a crime to wear a Tom Brady jersey. It would still be considered trespassing if they ask you to leave and refused.
My question stems from a mix of the Indiana Mall shooting and people on forums. It amazes me how I see people calling the Good Samaritan a hero for carrying inside a gun-free zone, no matter if it’s enforceable or not. Some of the same people are also arguing that you should obey every rule related to firearms and where you can carry. I’m not advocating for anyone to break rules for laws, but I do acknowledge reality and it’s called concealed carry for a reason.
I would like to know if someone who is a platinum member is going to get thrown under the bus by USCCA for needing their services on a case outside of clear-cut self-defense.
Membership level is not particularly relevant to this aspect of membership.
A case “outside of clear-cut self-defense” will depend on the totality of the facts and circumstances of that particular case, as no two events are --similar-- the same. That’s really all there is to offer on that, which is kind of how it has to be by its nature.
So I saw a USCCA employee replied with an answer to my question, but I cannot seem to find the reply anymore. Here is a screenshot of the notification of their reply but I would like to read what the rest of the statement is.
“Act of self defense” is defined in the self defense liability insurance policy the USCCA purchased on which members are additional insureds. It’s under definitions on page 10/12. You can find this policy by logging into your USCCA Member Dashboard (usconcealedcarry.com), clicking the circle in the top right corner with the letter of your first initial, then membership benefits, then self defense liability insurance
Also note the definition of “Conviction” shortly below that, high on page 11/12
I’m interested in hearing this as well. In Illinois, the first two violations of a “Gun Free Zone” sticker are a misdemeanor. The 3rd time is a felony. Obviously, strike 3 wouldn’t be covered, but, I’m interested to see if the others would.
That might not be so obvious. Violation of a state carry law is not itself necessarily an automatic exclusion from coverage under the policy purchased by the USCCA, on which members are additional insureds, even when that state carry law is a felony.
Illegal possession of a weapon under Federal law IS one of the exclusions, however.
This if course is in reference to potential coverage for the act of self defense, not for violation of the carry law itself.
And the best way IMO to get these answers, is to call or chat in. Phone number on the back of your member card or the Chat Now box in the bottom right corner of the member dashboard at usconcealedcarry.com
To reiterate, the best way to get a proper and even more official answer is going to be to call or chat in and speak directly to a Delta Defense employee about your membership.
I did call, that’s what started this thread. The answer I got was pretty laughable. She just repeated how USCCA doesn’t talk about cases and how she was not a legal expert and referred me to this forum.
As far as illegally possessing the weapon, I am starting with the assumption the person carrying is not a prohibited possessor. They are legally able to carry on the sidewalk, but they step inside a Starbucks for a snack and the employee calls the cops on them for ignoring the “no gun” sign.
Directly, no. Same with the Indiana mall shooting with the good Samaritan just 5 seconds before it was a self defense situation. My question is, would someone have to rely on a bad guy committing an act of evil before USCCA would consider you worth defending?
As I understand, USCCA would not have defended him 5 seconds earlier, but after the shooting took place he is a hero.
Side note, I don’t believe he is being charged with a crime so he wouldn’t need USCCA defense anyways. Indiana laws are pretty good about self-defense immunity.
I understand the same as you, this aspect of USCCA membership would not kick in simply for carrying somewhere that is illegal under state law
And even after those 5 seconds elapse and the member is acting in self defense/defense of others, lawfully, and even if this act is determined to be covered, that is the act of self defense…not the violation of the state carry law…should the member be prosecuted for the illegal carry aspect
