Virginia to OUTLAW Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, kickboxing, Tai Chi,

[CascadiaNow]

@Zee, we totally agree that any law can be abused and that we need to be relentless in insisting on due process and penalties for those who abuse them. And I’m sorry for your friend – having personal experience defintely can influence one’s views. But he could have just as easily been accused of embesslement or child abuse. Look at Swatting, if you want examples of how good laws can be abused.

Your point that “intimidation” is open to interpretation is well taken. But it’s not left to the eye of the beholder, it’s resolved through a legal process. In your hypthetical scenarios, you left out three steps that would make you a felon: 1. You’d have to be arrested 2. You’d have to be tried; and, 3. You’d have to be convicted. While a huge inconvenience and maybe expensive, each of these steps provides some guarantee of due process, and a formal interpretation of intent. This happens all the time resulting, for example, in the difference between manslaughter and murder.

I’m only trying to make two points. First, just as there are potential excesses of certain laws, there are also potential dangers in the absence of laws as well. Take your scenario above, and change it a bit. Let’s say an angry ex- posts himself outside the home of a former spouse and their kids, AR on a sling, and a 1911 on his hip. Should she have any legal recourse, or just confine herself to having to pass by him with her kids, with no recourse unless he actually hurts one of them?

My second point is about how this, like so much, is couched within a perceived battle of civilizations between left and right. This original story was wildly inaccurate, but did not stop the ire of the echo chamber, even when the inaccuracies were pointed out. My concern is not right versus left, but how I feel we are all being manipulated by those corporations who benefit from perpetuating the split. Infowars and Facebook (and, if we’re honest, the gun industry) all make oodles of money by trying to encourage our anger and fear, and we fall right into line. While we’re busy sniping at each other, they’re laughing all the way to the bank.

Thanks, as ever, for thoughtful engagement.

[ES16]

“Elections and Party politics are a neat way of keeping the sheeple at each other’s throats, whilst the ruling elite go about screwing us all behind our backs. It doesn’t matter one iota which -ism is in power this year. The destruction of the West continues.”

[Alexander8]

@CascadiaNow

Let’s say an angry ex- posts himself outside the home of a former spouse and their kids, AR on a sling, and a 1911 on his hip. Should she have any legal recourse, or just confine herself to having to pass by him with her kids, with no recourse unless he actually hurts one of them?

This is a nightmare scenario that happens more often than you think. This is what teachers and kids went through for years in Parkland, with LE complacent and derelict in their job. This is how radicals and gangsters are able to successfully intimidate everyone. And how perverts are able to be on the kids’ playgrounds with cameras.

I personally think there is a problem with 1A in this country, specifically, Brandenburg rules set boundaries too wide, but I am not a constitutional atty.

On the other hand, if Common Sense is lost, no law will help you, happy journey to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Zee]

@CascadiaNow

Look at Swatting, if you want examples of how good laws can be abused.

I don’t have to look… we’ve actually been SWATted. I had 5 law enforcement agencies, a dozen and a half LEOs in tactical gear, and a black helicopter, in my yard and in my house for more than 10 hours trying to make a case where there was NOTHING because my well-connected neighbor thought we were “white trash” and objected to our breathing his air. So yeah, I get it about abuse.

@CascadiaNow

Your point that “intimidation” is open to interpretation is well taken. But it’s not left to the eye of the beholder, it’s resolved through a legal process.

One that provides no redress for those wrongfully and maliciously accused… which is part of what’s wrong with this law.

@CascadiaNow

In your hypthetical scenarios, you left out three steps that would make you a felon: 1. You’d have to be arrested

that happened in my friend’s case. Consequences: lost job, lost wages, on the the person’s legal record forever, many thousands of dollars in expenses, loss of several very expensive firearms that were “inadvertently destroyed early” by the police, and permanent physical damage caused by the officers during the arrest.

@CascadiaNow

2. You’d have to be tried;

In my friend’s case, avoided by virtue of many more thousands of dollars in lawyers fees, and by my friend’s willingness to stay in the maximum security lockup with the 3-strikers rather than be forced into a felony plea deal, including loss of firearms rights for life.

@CascadiaNow

3. You’d have to be convicted.

In my friend’s case, a misdemeanor plea was finally decided to be the prudent choice to escape the legal costs and continued incarceration until trial.

@CascadiaNow

While a huge inconvenience and maybe expensive, each of these steps provides some guarantee of due process, and a formal interpretation of intent. This happens all the time resulting, for example, in the difference between manslaughter and murder.

Just going to go on record that you are seriously underestimating the impact of those words. Permanent legal record, PTSD, permanent physical harm, loss of work and income, loss of property, cost of defense, and permanent loss of faith in both law enforcement and the judicial system … THAT is the cost of a false accusation. There is NO path for redress provided by law or by the system. Despite the theoretical guarantees, I see very little in the way of “guarantee” in the practical realities.

The point here is that when a law is written and it is ripe for abuse, and the consequences for falsely applying it are not clearly stated and built into the law, abuse will run amok. I have (no one has) any way to quantify that, but having seen the consequences up-close and personal TWICE, I’m inclined to think they’re under-reported. I used to believe that the accused or the convicted crying “wrongly accused” was just a thing bad guys could be expected to do. I no longer believe that. I now believe, based on personal experience, that it happens much more than we know, and that when someone is wrongly accused, it is likely their outcry will be ignored as whining by the guilty.

[Alexander8]

Stuff of nightmares.

[Zee]

@CascadiaNow

I’m only trying to make two points. First, just as there are potential excesses of certain laws, there are also potential dangers in the absence of laws as well. Take your scenario above, and change it a bit. Let’s say an angry ex- posts himself outside the home of a former spouse and their kids, AR on a sling, and a 1911 on his hip. Should she have any legal recourse, or just confine herself to having to pass by him with her kids, with no recourse unless he actually hurts one of them?

There are plenty of laws in most places to address that scenario already. Criminal menacing, terroristic threats, stalking, possibly witness intimidation or other laws as well. Restraining orders are commonly and routinely used for such things. There are already mechanisms in place, a new and badly written law is not needed to protect the woman in your example.

There was a time when stalking could not be addressed because there was no law, but I’m guessing most states have had such laws in place for more than 20 years.

@CascadiaNow

My second point is about how this, like so much, is couched within a perceived battle of civilizations between left and right.
…
My concern is not right versus left, but how I feel we are all being manipulated by those corporations who benefit from perpetuating the split.

Agreed, and divide and conquer is alive and well in American politics. Ben Franklin was right, “We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.” “They” are doing a fine job of it, and “we” keep falling for it, hook line and sinker.

@CascadiaNow

This original story was wildly inaccurate, but did not stop the ire of the echo chamber, even when the inaccuracies were pointed out.
…
Infowars and Facebook (and, if we’re honest, the gun industry) all make oodles of money by trying to encourage our anger and fear, and we fall right into line. While we’re busy sniping at each other, they’re laughing all the way to the bank.

I would contend that this is NOT the echo chamber… here you and I are discussing it like rational adults

EVERYONE has a vested interest in where we spend our money and put our time and focus, and the opportunity to manipulate “us” is everywhere. “We” are doing a poor job of defending against it, and I suspect are regularly being taught to not even see when its being done. Bread and Circuses is an age-old plan because it WORKS. This ^^ is what accounts for the size of my tinfoil hat. This, and my personal experiences at the hands of “the system”.

I wish I had a solution for that, but short of brain transplants for everyone, I don’t know how it gets done. The best I’ve got is one-on-one with the people who have some reason to listen to me. I doubt it is enough.

@CascadiaNow

Thanks, as ever, for thoughtful engagement.

and thank you as well.

[ES16]

Zee… you have been through the ringer and then some. I am damn sorry to read the above. Unfortunately, this is now the new norm. It easier to send an innocent person to jail, whether to hold for trial or in front of 12 jurors, than a repeat offender who knows where the weaknesses are in the system and exploit it to their advantage. How the hell did it get to that? None of my business but that’s like going after escaped inmates (murder, rape) than a dispute between two people… were you able to file a lawsuit against the Sheriffs department and the “neighbor”?

[Zee]

@ES16 thank you. It wasn’t much fun, but it surely was an education. All in all, I think it was a pretty high price for that education, some things can’t be fixed once they’re broken.

One of the deeply shocking factors of both our situation, and my friends, was how committed both law enforcement and the legal system were to conviction, not justice. It was very much like having shown up on site was all “the system” needed to be certain of guilt. There was virtually no effort to determine accuracy of the claims, only to prosecute based on the complaint. In both cases, the prosecution yielded ZERO ground once they made a claim, they only said “fine, we won’t prosecute that part”. They NEVER said “we acknowledge that part didn’t happen” or “that claim wasn’t true”. It was very clear the only thing that mattered was winning.

We looked at could we sue the malicious reporter, or the police or legal system, and the answer is “you could try”. The practical fact is that it becomes a matter of civil law at that point, not criminal law… if it’s criminal you have to get a prosecutor to agree to do it, and since they were part of the problem, its not happening. For the civil part, we would have to prove intent in order to prevail, and without documentation of their intent… an email saying “I’m gonna lie to get these people in trouble”, for instance… all they have to do is say “I was mistaken, I believed it at the time”, and you’re done. There is NO practical civil recourse.

Our solution was leaving California and moving to Missouri where we are far less likely to have to endure such a thing again.

updated to complete the information

[ES16]

I continue to hear horror stories from people all over the country since our police forces have been militarized… he said, she said, they said. California, that damn near explains it all. As long as the “neighbor” has the influence or “connections” with higher-ups in the food chain, you would be indeed chasing a Unicorn (IMHO) Damn smart move getting out and heading to Missouri. Worked in St. Louis and lived in St. Charles years past before heading to the Middle East. My God, i can’t even imagine the stress that caused for you and the family. Thank the Lord above it did go further south than it had already.

[45IPAC]

Your experience hammers home why Red Flags are a bad idea as well. An increasingly alarming number of politicians, and law enforcement are ok with taking away an individual’s right to Due Process.

[CascadiaNow]

Neat quote. Whose is it?

[Craig1]

Since most so-called ‘blue’ states are a result of the major population centers voting Democrat, I have a thought. Make a ballot amendment for each state to enact an electoral college initiative for all state elections, just as in the presidential. That should make leftist heads explode…

[Harvey]

@CascadiaNow

My second point is about how this, like so much, is couched within a perceived battle of civilizations between left and right. This original story was wildly inaccurate, but did not stop the ire of the echo chamber, even when the inaccuracies were pointed out. My concern is not right versus left, but how I feel we are all being manipulated by those corporations who benefit from perpetuating the split. Infowars and Facebook (and, if we’re honest, the gun industry) all make oodles of money by trying to encourage our anger and fear, and we fall right into line. While we’re busy sniping at each other, they’re laughing all the way to the bank.

I think this is a pretty important thing to always keep in the back of your mind whenever reading news, summaries, studies, TV pundits, etc. We are all “useful idiots” in that regard.

But I think it’s also important to realize that sometimes… yes, things are that bad. Keeping it specific to this bill, the wording makes it pretty well ripe for abuse. Maybe it wont happen… but at this point I dont trust either political party to “do the right thing”.

And considering “who” is sponsoring the bill, I have zero doubt about where its being aimed. Literally, at gun owners.

[Zee]

@Harvey

Maybe it wont happen… but at this point I dont trust either political party to “do the right thing”.

Me either… and that feels very sad to me.

[ToddN]

As I understand it, this is a stand alone bill. The language is, by design, very vague in order to allow for “interpretation” as to application, scope, and breadth.

[Zee]

@ToddN

The language is, by design, very vague in order to allow for “interpretation” as to application, scope, and breadth.

That is the scariest thing a law can be… deeply deeply frightening if that is the intent.