Was hoping to open some dialogue and get opinions on this USCCA Video segment.
Seeing that chemical agents are a very popular option for many people (most are untrained or uneducated with their use and capabilities)
Personally I only carry flip top units. I don’t have as much faith in the rotate-to-the-side safety lever both in terms of avoiding a pocket ND, and in my ability to quickly orient the can and find the lever and move it.
The effects of taking a face full in, well, the face, seen in the video are not uncommon. The stuff sucks lol
Not sure pepper spray is what I would optimally go for if a robber demanding my wallet is coming at me with a raised bat/pipe/similar, but I do recognize there is actually a chance pepper spray could be a better choice than firearm in that if pepper spray is going to work on that attacker, it stands a very real chance of working more immediately than a pistol. OC in the eyes effects you right now
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I think in this scenario, where the bad guy raises his weapon (tire iron, bat or whatever the foam represents) and comes at you, most reasonable people would consider themselves as being imminently threatened with death or severe bodily injury. If I felt the threat was likely serious and not clearly a bluff I would be going for my firearm if I had time to draw. Pepper spray does not always work against determined attackers. If I was very confident he was bluffing I would likely pull out my throwaway money clip, toss it towards his feet and run the other way with my hand on my firearm ready to draw if he follows.
But I do carry pepper gel for less threatening situations.
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Nathan57 and Schamrock, Thank you both for your replies. They were very informative. I was considering how the application of the Pepper Spray (PS) on an attacker.
As a former Less than Lethal Instructor, I am less an advocate for PS for several reasons. The demonstration, IMHO, provided some context, but not enough reality base.
Having real-life experience (dozen or more) with PS, the aggressor was only incapacitated maybe 50% of the time. The half that it did not affect, granted these individuals were determined NOT to be arrested, their mental and physical abilities to continue their violent-aggressive behavior did not change.
I’m only concerned that the “lesson” doesn’t provide good context with an actor who is doing everything the instructor is asking. I’m not sure it was explained either.
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I’m curious, on the roughly 50% who were not incapacitated, to what degrees were their abilities to fight, to give chase, impaired?
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I think the issues you bring up are very valid. I have no real life experience with pepper spray but have read of more than a few cases where it had little or no effect. I think this is a flaw in a lot of the training I see. It often focuses on doing your intended move but not on what to do if your move doesn’t work fast enough. Same for handgun training where you draw and fire your double or triple tap and look at the target to see where you hit.
I have been fortunate enough to never have to pull my handgun or my spray. But I am very aware that they are not magical threat stoppers that will work every time. I try to train for scenarios where my first action has little or no effect forcing me to have to apply more of the same force or choose an alternative.
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I agree @Steve162, I do not carry (PS) on my person now, but when I was a police officer the ones it did not effect was usually high on one or more substances. Some people just are not phased by it, when I was in training some were not. I remember another nearby department doing away with the gel form because of subjects removing the “glob” from their face and throwing it back at officers.
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Tim is the MAN, Dude you actually let him spray you? That’s crazy…
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I’m not sure I can provide a level of degree, because it is subjective.
I can say the effect was not immediate, nor incapacities them enough to prevent the “FIGHT” or “FLIGHT”. The fights were too long IMO and cross contamination was another issue to deal with.
I am not dismissing that they were LE oriented, and the obligation to retreat was not an option. I must also add that these are individuals whom are “career criminals” with a high propensity for violence already. Introduction to Chemical agents are a part of the lifestyle.
Unfortunately, it seems more “career criminals” are being released these days. Their mindsets, and in many cases their “training”, are abnormal, at best.
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Thank you for your service and protection.
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We’ll said brother. Stay safe.
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Thank you as well sir!!
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The things Tim does for the bettering of all of us. Thank you, Tim, Do you like pepper on your eggs?
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In basic training the CS Gas chamber was mildly uncomfortable to me, it didn’t have the debilitating effects it had on most of the other guys.
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Pepper spray works well on most people most of the time. If it works, it may work immediately or it may take up to 30seconds before it kicks in (delayed reaction). Some folks are naturally immune to it, and some folks have developed a resistance to it due to being sprayed many times with it.
In the example in the video, I would not be relying on pepper spray. To me, that is a deadly-force encounter. A criminal will not announce their attack until they were within striking distance. Something like in the video would result in being hit with the bat repeatedly until the pepper spray kicks in… which may be immediate, may be up to 30secs, or may be the person is immune.
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Great information Harvey, and Thank you. I wasn’t so much concerned with the “scenario” as I was with context of the video, “Will it stop a person!” Based on the presentation, it will probably stop a person 9 out of 10 times. Way too many variables involved and it was too “scripted” (IMHO). Pepper Spray (PS) does work well, but I wouldn’t want to report on it’s reliability based on the context of the presentation. Firearms too, may have the same number of variables (or more) to be effective/ineffective.
Here you give a good explanation that “it may work immediately or it may take up to 30seconds”. For those who have never been in a 30 second dynamic critical incident, that’s a looonnnggg time!
Cross contamination can cause you problems. Close spaces (rooms, vehicles, stores) may create unintentional consequences. This doesn’t even include your statement that “some folks are naturally immune to it”. And some folks have just trained themselves to deal with it.
I am not advocating that PS or other chemical agents aren’t effective. I am a firm believer that more options are a benefit. I am hoping people who choose to add this tool to their arsenal have a good understanding of what it can do, and what it can’t do. This pertains to all personal defensive tools.
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wow I’ve been looking for a pepper spray video for my wife… wow should of known there would be one here on USSCA… thanks I’m going to check it out and show my wife…
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things I’ve been wondering myself… will it work, will it stop someone, and what if…difinetly need a back up of some kind… ima check this video out…
Allow me to share a real life incident. I was trying to pull out of a parking lot this blocking the sidewalk. A pedestrian walking down the street stopped and kicked my car. I got out and saw some damage. The pedestrian told to F off as he had the right away. A few words were said and I offered him if he wanted a piece of me he was welcome to try. He came over and raised his leg like karate kick which never touched. He started to walk away quickly. A woman walking by offered me her Pepper Spray. As I walked towards the guy with Pepper Spray in hand I asked him if that’s all he had. He came back towards. Just as he hat in range I let him have it with the Pepper Spray. Here is the lesson I learned. NEVER EVER SHOOT PEPPER SPRAY INTO THE WIND!
He got the worse of it , barely. By this time the Police had come and he was hauled of to jail. Have to tell you when they found out about the Pepper Spray I think they were going to bust open they were laughing so hard!! True story.
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You were lucky not to be arrested for assault.
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