Here is a video example of what i was talking about. Disclaimer: the good guy here dies.
1 Like
In the military they teach us and escalating use of force. You try to stop a situation with as little force as possible and increase the use of force the more resistance or violence you begin to face in a given situation after you’ve intervened.
If it were me in the original scenario…I’d have my wife call 9-11 while I went to where the situation was happening and first try to verbally order the attacker to stop and leave…if that didn’t work…then resort to trying to physically remove him from the person he (or she) is attacking.
If that doesn’t work and only as a last resort if there’s a chance of grievous bodily harm to the person being attacked or if the assailant turns his attention to me (assuming the police haven’t arrived by this time) that’s when I start to make the hard choice of whether to draw my weapon or not.
Kentucky is very clear that use of deadly force is ok when you fear only for your safety and no one else.
2 Likes
Almost everything depends on how much time I have to assess the situation. There is always reasonable cause, doing what a reasonable person would do. In “California” , you have the right to defend yourself and others against imminent harm. . Proving that you acted in “self defense” can protect you from any consequences that may result from your actions. And that is why I have insurance. The amount of force used would amount to the amount of force needed.
2 Likes
I think the only time I wouldn’t run through the escalation of force mindset to help a stranger is if it was a situation where a LEO is fighting with a perp who has gotten the better of him and there’s a danger of the officer being hurt or killed.
I think we’ve all seen the video of the perp beating the Lee County Florida deputy during morning rush hour after a traffic stop went wrong. All the cars are stopped…no one is helping this officer that is getting pummeled…until a civilian with a firearm gets out of his car and comes over to assist…the officer can he heard yelling “shoot him…shoot him”…the Good Samaritan put three rounds in the bad guy…who assumed room temp.
NOW the interesting part of that…and why in my humble opinion we ALL need carry insurance is that this case…even with all the video of what happened the incident still went to the county prosecutors office to determine if charges would be filed.
Truly proving that no good deed goes unpunished.
6 Likes
Was it just a formality in that county? I’m betting a fatality requires some sort of review in a lot of counties. But I have been known to be wrong on occasion (and I stink at betting.)
2 Likes
I would imagine everything needs to be reviewed as a formality. I know Texas lists every inmate they execute as a homicide and an autopsy is done.
edit: it’s kind of creepy but you can go to the Texas DOJ website and look up past executions, last words of the inmate, and method of execution. Along with upcoming executions and the information (school level, profession, crime) about every inmate on death row.
1 Like
Domestic violence is very complicated and often not the way we think it is. Unless you’ve worked in the environments that see it close up, you may think its mostly women victims, and that its usually the man who’s the perpetrator. But…
1975 National Family Violence Survey found that 27.7% of IPV (intimate partner violence) cases were perpetrated by men alone, 22.7% by women alone and 49.5% were bidirectional.
And
The 2001 National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health found that 49.7% of IPV cases were reciprocal and 50.3% were non-reciprocal. … The overall data showed 70.7% of non-reciprocal IPV cases were perpetrated by women only (74.9% when reported by men; 67.7% when reported by women) and 29.3% were perpetrated by men only (25.1% when reported by men; 32.3% when reported by women)
… 
… the stats show that women instigate at roughly the same rate that men do. These stats match pretty closely for domestic violence in same-gender relationships for both men and women as well.
Of course, when there’s a mismatch of force, as there usually is, its typically the women who take the greater damage.
The reason I bring this up is that in a domestic violence situation, statistically, there’s only about a 25% chance that the person being attacked is an innocent party. And gender doesn’t alter the percentage much.
Knowing that makes me much less certain that I can judge the truth of a situation I walked in on without seeing everything from the start. I’m not going to be nearly as sure I know who the bad “guy” is.
That being said, where there is life, preserving it matters. If all I know about the situation is that one person is in the act of killing another, I’m going to feel a strong need to intervene if I can do so without endangering yet more people. How I would react is not something I can know in advance.
4 Likes
I have read many accurate thought processes in these posts. With out trying to over simplify this scenario, there are 3 circumstances that i absolutely first ask myself before formulating any action plan. 1st: sufficient threat. 2nd: reasonable belief. 3rd: imminent danger. If any situation shows me that the THREAT is sufficient that a REASONABLE person (armed or unarmed) believes that the the danger of severe bodily harm or death is IMMINENT…then i formulate an action plan based on all the variables that everyone has intelligently put forward on the posts I’ve read. I would try to help either way, but would not use deadly force without answering “yes” to these questions.
3 Likes
Exactly, @Gary-A. The phrase I use (and is used throughout the USCCA), is imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm. You can add on to an innocent person at the end of that for defense of self or others as well - in most states.
4 Likes
When I recently took “Handgun 104” at SIG Sauer Academy, the instructors ran us through some scenario-based training. One of those scenarios involved a man stabbing a stranger in a parking lot. Needless to say, we all had different responses, but the instructors did say that we had the right to present our guns and even use deadly force. I think that it depends on several factors, including local laws. Unless the “stabber” turns on me, I am not in direct danger and if I did shoot and kill him, then the prosecutor would have a field day getting me convicted on charges. There are nearly infinite scenarios, and it is very difficult to prepare for all of them, especially when the adrenaline and “tunnel vision” come into play. The best thing to do is to keep training, both physically AND mentally.
4 Likes
Interesting scenario, @Nathan. I’d love to go to the Sig Academy at some point. 
Quick question - was the attacker in the act of stabbing or had they already stabbed and started to leave? That will make a huge difference in the defense of your actions.
3 Likes
@Dawn - The way this scenario was set up, the attacker was still in the act of stabbing their victim.
2 Likes
Good advice. Third party encounters are never cut and dried situations and as most police will tell you can quickly flip to a two on one situation with you being the odd man out. On the other hand, if anyone sees my wife thumbing on me feel free to step in:)
3 Likes
Great job on the message here,
William Smith
1 Like
I was told that we should walk away and that only good thing you can do is call 911,
but it is not that easy. Watch closely the bad guy and do not take your eye off him
and continue to give reports to dispatch and wait for the police. The attention may
drive him off if you on the telephone with 911. There is more to this.
My two sense is not worth much if I respond poorly, but if could use the same force
that he has and use in a great way to stop him from hurting another live person,
I WILL DO SO in a second, equal force only; LAWS and RULES. I can not shot the bad
guy with deadly force other wise: You have to be in FEAR of Grave Bodily Harm or IN
Fear of Death and that is the/a concern, that has to be applied to YOU. Explain that to
your Attorneys and to the police.
1 Like
That really depends on the situation. Some things to consider - Do you know who the innocent party is in the confrontation? Is the person being attacked in imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm? What do your state’s laws say about defending another person?
If you don’t know who’s innocent in the situation or if someone isn’t in imminent, unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm - be a good witness and call 911.
5 Likes
Thank for your help on this question. I have to be careful and not led someone
into a dangerous battle. My first paragraph had some of the answers to your questions
that have gone through my mind. I have been educated to call 911, give details of the situation
and details as clear as they can be, and stay out of. The answer: NO!
Thank you Dawn for all those thoughts and questions. I needed that.
William H Smith Jr
3 Likes
For me this is a tricky situation because in many states if you don’t get the cops called before you step in you could be looked at as the perpetrator. I am in the mindset that if someone needs help then I will step in and help. However, I don’t want to step into a third party encounter without the facts either. What if you see the defender actually handling the situation and you help the aggressor?
3 Likes
That is definitely one thing to consider, @Tre_Michael. If you don’t know who the innocent party is before you try to help a situation you may be helping the attacker without knowing it.
3 Likes
That is why I think than in most situations it is better to let authorities step in unless deadly force is presented in which case it should be met with deadly force. However, I do not believe in abuse on a female in any situation. Honestly, abuse on any human is uncalled for, we are not mindless apes its time we acted as such.
2 Likes