You are in a convenience store waiting to check out when the person in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier and demands cash from the drawer. You are carrying concealed and know you could have the drop on the perpetrator, but notice his/her finger is not on the trigger - it is extended right beside the slide, possibly indicating they just want the money. What would you do?
Good scenario @Gary_H
- find the spot to have clear space behind the perpetrator
- pull your gun
- make a verbal command
- ask others to call 911
- then decide to shoot or not.
- scan for other threat (however these guys work alone)
In most cases these guys give up, so no reason to shoot. This a comfortable situation for me because the perpetrator doesn’t have finger on the trigger.
Not my circus, not my . Probably would discretely draw gun and cover with coat, or hat. He stays after stuff. I have a more important job. That’s getting home to my wife and child.
He starts getting squirrelly and he puts me in fear of failing to get home. Now he’s making it my circus and my .
Self defense, not stuff defense.
Your #6 needs to be #1.
Also scan for signs that this could be some idiotic prank by high schoolers.
you are right about #6 to be #1…
but prank is not an excuse here… if some idiot is doing this as prank he will end up with idiotic death.
I agree with the course of action!
We know that if we do shoot then we see a reprocussion of law upon ourselves so it’s best to cover our surroundings, disarm and command till an officer does arrive. In this situation no deadly force is needed only bravery and our part as law abiding citizens to help.
After all that’s what ccw is about! Protecting ourselves AND others in danger when law enforcement isn’t present. The only time we should discharge our arm is in return fire or when the assailant doesn’t comply and tries to use force.
This is not the right response but I would like to say, “I appreciate your trigger etiquette, but I am not nearly as disciplined as you are and my finger IS on the trigger and, well, you can feel where the bullet will enter your cranium. Shall we see where it exits?”
THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE
Is it too James Bond-ish to slowly walk up to the perp, checking 360, place my 45 auto in his kidneys and whisper in his ear to slowly drop the weapon, or I put your kidneys on the wall? Or do I just pull a John Wick, two to the chest or his back and one to the skull?
The reason I’m asking is, if I draw down on the perp and verbally command obedience will that create panic and chaos on the part of the crowd inside and or the perp himself and him possibly pulling the trigger by mistake?
Finger not on the trigger tells me this guy is experienced with gun safety. People react differently when in a stressful situation. This Perp may be very confident or scared silly. How will he or she react if I involve myself in their endeavor? My action would be to back away calmly while watching how things progress trying to find cover in the event I want to intervene. I’m neither ready to face an experienced criminal with no concern for life nor do I want to confront a first timer who is hyped up on adrenaline and fear! The Legal aftermath may be more than I want to endure if I actually fire my weapon to save a few bucks! My best bet is let the theft take place, let the Perp leave, then 911 and assist the Clerk.
I don’t carry to be John Wayne, I carry for my immediate safety. If no one is actually harmed then it’s a good day!
Finger OFF the trigger makes big comfort to be involved. There is more time to decide shoot or not.
I’m not "a hero"guy, but I’m very sensitive for iniquity, which I’ve seen a lot. I just cannot stay and look.
First, of course, is safety - mine and my Family, but this particular scenario is not a complicated one.
Hopefully the perp gives up and everybody go home… if not one stays on the floor…
One good way to look into this is, what would you jump into a shark tank for? So for example, would you jump in to rescue a stranger that fell into a tank full of sharks? Would you jump in to save your child? Should you draw on the attacker and risk them noticing your draw and killing you? Would you risk an errant round flying through the window into the parking lot, or through the store? Did you notice the attacker’s body language before this all went down, and should you have decided to retreat earlier? Most of the time the word ambush does not apply as much as the word oblivious.
These are all questions you have to figure out for yourself and take into serious consideration. You are not a police officer, and you do not have to insert yourself into an incident.
Please remember the 4 rules of deadly force:
You must be an innocent party
You must be in fear of your life or of great bodily harm
You must have no options to escape the situation
There was no other force available to stop the threat.
Had a similar situation waiting for a train going to work the other morning, there was a guy physically beating the S**t out of someone on the platform and I just kept my eye on the dirtbag and ready to defend ONLY MY PARTNER AND MYSELF. Fortunately the train we were waiting for arrived within a minute or two.
James, the one concern I have with the analogy is that you have no chance against a shark, whereas the playing field is at least present–not sure if it’s balanced, or weighted in my favor or the gunman’s. The ‘do nothing’ approach only works if the situation resolves itself in a best case scenario-- without gunfire–robber gets away with money and noone is injured. While I understand I don’t have a responsibilty to initiate action, and my cop friends have counseled that it’s best to ‘be a good witness’, the question I ask myself is how would I sleep for the rest of my life having shot a robber? How would I sleep after I waited to shoot the robber until he shot a clerk?
So let’s take it to the next step, he shoots the clerk and starts to run out the door. Now you have (by failing to act) allowed an innocent to be shot, and you have no legal grounds for intervening (he’s not engaging–he just wants to get away). That’s something that a lot of people might have trouble living with–the knowledge they had the ability to try to help and didn’t.
Personally, I’m staying at condition red and praying for a nonviolent outcome.
A criminal pulls a gun—their intent is to kill.
However, I do see what you’re saying and it really boils down to one thing…
“What would you do?” Meaning: All of us would have different responses had this been a real scenario.
Since I live in the south(Alabama) and my normal dress is jeans/shorts and a T-shirt my concealed weapon is small, LCP,. There are way too many unknown things that influence/change confrontations. Based on the OP this is a property issue and only has the ‘potential’ to turn deadly. If I can pull my weapon without likely being noticed and have the ability to conceal in my hand I would do so. Beyond that I do nothing more unless it appears likely he intends to harm someone. I have a sibling who is retired FBI. They once entered a home to arrest a guy who had federal warrants outstanding. It turned out the guy had been shot by a .38 a day or two before and was laying on the couch. His .38 on the table beside him. At this point he wanted only to go to a hospital. However, we should remember that after being shot he was able to keep his weapon and return to his home. My point is you never know what might happen after the trigger is pulled. If you can, leave things for LE because they will hopefully have overwhelming force when they get involved.
It says somewhere in the Scriptures “Do not watch your neighbor’s blood spill”, or am I mistaken. Inaction brings really bad karma. Don’t watch bullying, or beating, or a hold up, at least say something.
I would read it a little differently:
You must protect innocent party
You must be in fear of yours or innocent people life or of great bodily harm
You must have no other options to save lifes
There was no other force available to stop the threat.
I know every person would solve this differently, but even I’m not LEO I would care about innocent people.
If the perpetrator goes after money only, not thinking about taking the life… why he just doesn’t ask nicely to give him the money? No need to draw my firearm then…
That’s the point of the shark tank analogy. What would you die for? What would you possibly go to prison for? If you would shoot in the situation, then you have decided what you would possibly lose your life over. But it is important to mentally prepare yourself now for that.
Protecting an innocent party is not a must for you. You are not a cop. You have no duty to put yourself in harm’s way.
The rules are what we teach in our curriculums, so I am going to stick with the ones I wrote.
One other thing to consider. There is a weapon already pointing at a potential victim. A surprise verbal action might trigger a reflex trigger pull resulting in the bad outcome one is trying to prevent. Sometimes the better part of valor is do nothing.