How about Ruth Buzzi from “Laugh In” beating with a rubber chicken??!!
Seriously, respond with an equal force if one chooses to be involved. If the level of force by the perp escalates, one may escalate also. This is a personal and aid-to-another call.
Too many variables at play here. In my opinion the best response is positioning yourself at a safe distance where you can still see what’s happening and call 911.
Detailed description of all parties involved as well as yourself and that you are armed. I would also tell the dispatcher if I’ve drawn my weapon, if I haven’t I would tell them where on my person my weapon is concealed.
I had a similar event three years ago. Walgreens parking lot, dude with a gun arguing with another dude. I positioned myself a safe distance away and made the call. In the end it turned out I was witnessing a drug deal gone wrong and the gun was a Glock replica BB gun.
When the police came in hot 3 officers went to the guys and one came to me. She told me to keep my hands in view and away from my right side/holstered gun.
Call me chicken excrement if you wish, but I’m not paid to be someone’s hero. I’ll be a good witness 100% of the time. Unless I become the aggressors target my first response will always be a 911 call.
Hey there 2A! From all I’ve learned, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! What an awesome answer. Well done. “I’d go to sea with you anytime.” that means I’d follow your teaching if I were your student. That’s a quote from the movie “U-571”…not sure of the number but the movie where they go and get an enigma machine. Well done 2A!
Thank you sir!!
I have in the past and would again in the future should the need arise as I am just made that way.
Anytime you get into a third party defensive situation you put yourself at unnecessary risk however and need to be very careful.
The most common 3rd party encounters generally involve domestic situations which are crazy by nature and you can very easily find yourself saving a woman’s life and then having her turn against you when the police arrive due to “battered woman syndrome”, so keep that in mind.
If the encounters involve strangers you really have no idea what you may be stepping into so again beware.
Most self defense professionals would advise you to avid 3rd party encounters when ever possible and simply dial 9-11 and be a good witness from a safe distance.
I’ll just say be aware of all the potential risk and liabilities and act as your conscience dictates. We’re not cops, and we have no duty to intercede in 3rd party situations.
One of the encounters I was involved in happened in the early 90’s on the highway near Rockwall Texas. A small hispanic girl had been chased by two assailants at high speed until her car overheated and konked out on her. I’d observed the situation initially as they passed me on the highway.
Cell phones were uncommon at that time and cell towers even more uncommon so all I could do was get on the radio and try to get someone else to report it to police and hope things worked out.
Well I came upon the gal being assaulted by the two in what appeared to be an tempted aggravated kidnapping and just felt like I had no choice but to stop and intercede.
Concealed Carry was not lawful in Texas at the time but I had one each rifle, shotgun, and revolver in the truck so I stepped out with the revolver.
In short I was able to stop the attack without killing anyone but I did fire a warning shot demonstrating that if need be I could hit whatever I wanted and told them if they didn’t immediately release her and leave they’d both be dead on the side of the road as fast as I could pull the trigger.
They relented and released her and left the scene. I was able to get their license number but police still hadn’t shown up.
I wasn’t comfortable remaining at the scene on the off chance they’d return so we loaded up my my pickup, and headed to the next town as quickly as we could and immediately stopped at the first truck stop, called police and waited on them.
The way the law was at the time, since I’d been traveling through more than five or more counties, was transporting high value merchandise, and it was an overnight trip I had a “defense to prosecution” for being in possession of a handgun.
I was very lucky though that the girl was apprciative of my efforts and told the police the truth. What I didn’t know was that the two assailants had followed her into a rest stop, waited for her to come out of the bathroom and attempted to assault her. That assault was broken up by another family pulling in to use the same facilities.
My firing a warning shot was at best questionably legal and I simply told the investigating offices that I was more than willing to shoot either or both if I had no other choice I opted for the warning shot to avoid going to jail. Both the DPS and Sheriff’s Dept investigators wrote it up that under the circumstances they thought my use of deadly force was thoroughly justified and the local prosecutor agreed. That could have gone the opposite way very quickly though since under the letter of the law it demonstrated that when I fired that shot I showed that my meeting the qualification of “imminence” was certainly questionable.
Fortunately I had a completely clean record and was still in the armed forces and when they contacted my commander he gave a glowing recommendation asserting that in his opinion was being 100% truthful.
My version also matched up exactly with that of the girl who told police that had I not acted as I did she was convinced that she would have been kidnapped, probably raped and thus likely killed had I not interceded.
I’ve had a couple of other third party encounters as well, one involved only showing a firearm and the other no use or implied use of a deadly weapon at all that both came out similarly as well.
The only thing that kept me from even being prosecuted was that it was easily demonstrated that I only interceded when it was absolutely reasonably necessary to do so, I had a spotless record, and that the investigators and DA’s found that I had a very good reputation.
I was very lucky, and would not recommend to anyone that they step in to such a situation blindly and only if the believe there is no other choice and that’s what their conscience dictates.
I’d call you smart! If you don’t know what’s going on - even if you do - calling the police is a smart move. Be a good witness and be as safe as you can be!
First, my desire is not to be a live or dead hero NOR to think I am better than another…only to accomplish what is RIGHT. The following answer is based upon my training, experience, and principles. As a Christian, my directive is Matthew 15:13, which was a promise to my bride at our wedding. I ask you to look up this verse.
Exactly, it’s not about trying to be a hero. Personally I was taught from early childhood that you simply don’t abide evil or suffer those who prey on the weak.
Some folks seem to get confused thinking unless you’re a hero you’re coward and that there’s nothing in between.
Most people will not put themselves at risk for others, that would be the norm for society, it doesn’t equate to cowardice.
Getting involved in any third party encounter puts yourself at substantial risk physically and legally and we should all weigh the balance of those risks against the good we might or might not do by getting involved.
As others have pointed out, in many of those encounters intervening can easily lead to an escalation and if you get between two people involved in a domestic you might well end up having both turn against you.
In the situation that was the subject of this thread, and the latter proving ground video however things were pretty clear cut, you have seconds to decide in such a situation whether or not to intervene and how you are going to intervene of someone is going to end up gravely injured or dead.
If you don’t have the competence and competence to deal with the situation you’d probably be best served by staying out of it and as others have suggested just be a good witness.
Taking the step to intervene with deadly force will always change your life permanent in dramatic ways so I try hard to get people to consider all the possible ramification when they first start considering any type of self defense training and make the decision then if they are willing to use force at all much less deadly force and under what circumstances.
Good point. Things are often not as they appear.
Smart thinking Jketchem. Most of the retired LEO I know will protect themselves and family. As far as outsiders, the situation would have to be extreme, like an active shooter at a mall. When active duty we had the State, County or City backing us as far as liability. We lost that when we retired.
Here’s a great blog post that just went up that goes well with this conversation:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/concealed-carry-what-about-defending-others/
If it appears to be a mass shooting situation (ie I hear the shooter yelling about “Admiral” Akbar) I’d be willing to help stop the threat, especially if I’m in immediate danger.
But if it looks like it is a domestic dispute? I’ll help by trying to distract and/or by calling 911. Probably just by calling 911.
I used to think I would step in to help most anyone. That was before educating myself further on laws and the process, thanks much to USCCA. Sadly it seems that you are actually crucifying yourself by helping.
How has the criminal/civil court process gone for those civilians who stopped the mass shooter threat in the past? Have they been in the process for years? Have they lost their jobs? Etc. @Dawn, that analysis would be a very interesting topic to cover in a USCCA webinar.
Solid article and good information.
It can’t be reiterated enough, there’s nothing more explosive or unpredictable than a domestic.
@chen4070 as a civilian in Georgia I have to pass on your first paragraph: our mission positions are literally 180 out. However, I’m right beside you Sir on every step you indicate in your second paragraph: it’s a very good plan of action to study and keep in mind should I find myself presented with the circumstance. At this point in my life, if the weapon is a firearm, and even hints at rotating toward me, I defend and move! At the least, our communications are open and we have friends listening and coming to help. (Once the Deputies arrive I am following All of their commands.)
First, is this woman bleeding form a knife attack? Second, is she being assaulted a gun point? If I know those two questions for sure I might engage the situation but otherwise I would call 911 and let the police handle the situation. Because you do not want to assume that this is a robbery, It might be a domestic dispute of some kind…Be very careful to keep you distance with a verbal engagement with this situation. This is from a civilian stand point
@Larry15 I agree. Knowledge is power, and may just save you from a bad situation in this case. Or it might help save a life. I think calling 911 is the right thing to do in any case.
My reaction is going to depend on exactly what I observe and whether I think I could intervene without escalating an already deadly situation.
Robbery or domestic if I believed that delaying action would likely result in her death I"m probably going to intervene but the first thing I’d want to do is have someone else dial 9-11 and give a good description of what is going on and hopefully it would be someone with enough presence of mind to give a play by play while waiting for police to arrive.
I simply could not just walk away myself if I felt like there was anything I could do to help.
If someone has a knife to your throat or gun to your head (or others) the legal burden is met as far as imminence is concerned but the need for immediacy of action can vary quite a bit depending on the situation and your read on it.
I’m looking at the KY statutes right now and that’s not what I’m seeing. have you got a better reference?
- The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable
when:
(a) The defendant believes that such force is necessary to protect a third person
against imminent death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual
intercourse compelled by force or threat, or other felony involving the use of
force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055; and
(b) Under the circumstances as they actually exist, the person whom he seeks to
protect would himself have been justified under KRS 503.050 and 503.060 in
https://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/ky-503-070-protection-of-another/
Reading this it seems clear that KY like every other state has statutes allowing for the use of both non deadly and deadly force in defense of a third party as long as the applicable criteria are met.
Correct Luke. Stand your ground law allows you to use deadly force to protect life with no duty to flee.
Some states say if you do not help you are as guilty as the person that was doing the attacking so that’s a double edge stone there Damned if you do and damned if you don’t to tough decision to make in a matter of seconds.