How important to have hand-to-hand skills?

Self-Defense
42

Sorry, let me back up and try again. This topic has come up multiple times in the past, and I always screw it up.

I’m not saying we shouldn’t have hand-to-hand skills, that we shouldn’t learn martial arts, or that we shouldn’t carry less lethal tools. Those are all great things if you have the time, money, and training for them. I just want to make sure we include some important caveats, such as:

  • Martial Arts training is not a legal requirement for self-defense
  • In a deadly force situation, it’s better to be armed than to engage in hand-to-hand combat
  • Colt made us equal
  • The techniques used to score points in a competition might not translate well to a real-life fight
  • If you train for actual self-defense, you should simulate your EDC as part of the training
  • All the stuff USCCA teaches about avoiding a fight and escaping still holds true, no matter how many black belts you have
  • There are complicated legal issues involved when you choose to engage an adversary with less lethal means. Entire articles can be written about this, but the gist of it is that unarmed techniques could still lead to charges of assault, battery, unlawful restraint, etc.
    EDIT: remember the FBI homicide statistics. Hands and feet can also be deadly.
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43

I’ve been biting my tongue on this post, but you nailed it @Ouade5 .
This isn’t middle school or high school where if you get in a fight there’s blood and a suspension.
In a true fight, not like TV, there are no breaks in the action where you waive your fingers for your opponent to engage with you. The fights I have seen are quick, lighting fast in action, no rules, no both stepping back to access and then re-engage. Most were over in about 15 seconds with both usually bloody, one on the ground maybe with a fractured skull from hitting the cement, smashed noses and eye sockets, broken jaws, many smashed missing teeth, broken knuckles and wrists, bite marks, not until later did I hear about internal abdominal ruptures.

Also, if all this happens and things devolve into grappling, remember you have a firearm that you could loose possession of, and it could be used against you. With that factor alone, a hand to hand combat incident very well be considered great bodily harm or loss of life.

Training: the Krav training track I feel for the modern day man, woman and teenager is an excellent way to attain CQ hand to hand disciplines.

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44

Exactly. I think this is what @Buddha-In-The-Sun alluded to earlier. There are a hundred reasons to avoid a hand-to-hand fight, even when you seem to have the advantage. But if you have something that could be used against you like a firearm, knife, pepper spray, etc., that only amplifies the need to maintain your distance whenever possible. Every situation is chaotic and unique, but if I’m in contact and I have a firearm on me, my primary objectives are to retain that firearm and break contact.

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45

I think the Krav guys are the more wise of the two. My joints are brittle, so I train on paper and computer, mostly. Awareness skills count a whole lot in my book. I look for other tools around me (rocks/sticks/chairs/cell phones/vases) to use, JIC the SHTF.

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46

Ditto that, Nathan. I’ve been watching John’s videos for a few years now and always learn something new (or repeats of strong wisdom) on days that I do.

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47

I studied judo for four years in Japan at a time when choke holds and torsion techniques were still taught. In, I think it was 1960, at the world judo tournament at the Kodokan in Tokyo, world judo headquarters, Anton Geesink, an over six foot tall, over 200 pound giant won the world judo championship and stunned the Judo world. It was the first time a non-Japanese had ever even come close to winning the world judo championship. Arguments raged in the judo world. The purists (the old guys) maintained if your technique was pure it didn’t matter how big your opponent was, you would prevail. Those were the same guys who thought Yamato Damashii (Japanese fighting spirit) would overcome machine guns and heavy artillery. We all know how well that worked out.

The younger guys who were actually on the floor competing retorted that it didn’t matter how pure your spirit was, size mattered. At that time there were no weight categories. The judoka faced all comers from 100 pound junior high school kids to 5’8" 200 pound fireplugs.

Today, we recognize that size and weight do matter and judo is divided into weight classes. Facing all comers was okay when most of the comers were the same nationality and most of them were all about the same size. With giant Dutchmen and equally giant Russians, Mongolians and other nationalities known for being oversized, it only makes sense to have weight categories.

Not only does size matter, but age and physical capability matter even more. At my age 80+ and with my bad knees, I don’t care how good my technique is and how pure my spirit is, I am a target victim. Any criminal seeing me hobbling along with my cane figures I am a soft target. So I have alternative means. I have a cane. Not a light weight easy to carry cane, but a cane made from a heavy African tree that is 3/4 of an inch in diameter. Everyone who picks it up comments on how heavy it is. That’s immediately at hand. I also carry the Kimber pepper spray gun. It is good to 20 feet according to the Kimber folks. I have other less than instantly lethal implements to enhance the cane and the pepper spray. And finally, I have Mr. Colt’s device which really made all men equal.

At my age and with my physical disabilities, I am not about to go mano a mano with some 25 year old punk who is over six feet and over 200 pounds. And with my physical disabilities there is the disparity of force that comes into play. I am going to do my level best to avoid any kind of confrontation, but sometimes it can’t be avoided. Recently a woman was knocked down and her purse stolen in the shopping center that I frequent. I don’t know her physical condition but reportedly she is forty years younger than I. Even if she can’t fight, I am quite positive that lacking any physical disabilities, she more than likely can run twice as fast as I at a minimum. I am about as fast and steady on my feet as a four year old. So if it is a four year old mugger, I may be able to outrun him. Any older and not chance.

If the pepper spray doesn’t deter a potential mugger, multiple 9mm 124 grain hollow points just might do the trick.

Just displaying a firearm doesn’t always deter. Ask any patrol cop how many times this week someone has offered to insert the officer’s firearm in a body cavity of the officer. If it hasn’t happened at least once, he must be patrolling Mayberry.

There are a great many folk who need a force multiplier and they are better off working on their force multiplier technique than spending time in the gym trying to learn how to beat Anton Geesink. By the way, he never competed in the world judo tournament again. I guess it was, “Okay, been there, done that. I’m done.”

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48

Excellent response @CHARLES514! The key, in my mind, is to have other tools in your arsenal in addition to a firearm. Whether it is pepper, a big stick, a pointy stick, stun gun, etc., including the ability to use your body if you are able, the more tools you have available, the better. The use of force continuum used by law enforcement starts with physical presence and ends with deadly force. The totality of the circumstances determine what amount of force is reasonable.

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49

Agreed. Learn to fight on the ground, as (at least what we learned in the Army is) that 80% of all fights end up on the ground, and whoever can fight on the ground will win on the ground. That being said, always have a knife that is easily accessible and able to be easily opened. For if you are fighting on the ground, having a knife gives you an immense advantage over an unarmed opponent.

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50

The ground is a bad place to end up. If he’s got buddies with him then it’s easy for all them to get on top of you, kick you in the temple, stomp your head, etc…

That’s why I train to stay on my feet. If he goes to the ground I can kick or stomp until I need to, but my goal is to remain upright.

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51

My problem with hand to hand combat is you must be in your opponents reach. You can go to hand to hand, but what if the other guy pulls out a knife and goes to work on you?

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52

In my opinion, that means you should work on situational awareness; looking at the threat hands and body language is key to making decisions. A person with a knife will need to get close and in the hug zone. Any knife attack I have witnessed, as a young man (old now), you will get cut and stabbed. From my experience, a person with a knife comes out fast had hard. That Bs we see on YouTube for knife skills to me is BS. Growing up in Guam, Filipinos and their combat skills with knife/bamboo sticks are legendary - Called kali, if I am not mistaken.

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53

Agreed. As was stated earlier, if you end up in a hand-to-hand fight, you’ve already made critical mistakes.

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54

My nightmare of using my firearm in the open to stop a threat: Under stress, I may miss or not see innocent people in the distance ( know what is beyond your target). Unfortunately, some will get tunnel vision and may not see innocents around them. That is why I train for options. It is about protecting my family and myself, and others around me. We all know each round is our responsibility.

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55

Do you think you would be confident to do this?

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56

Nope- I never have confidence nor ego in a threatening situation. What happens if he fired and missed and hit a car with someone in it while they are waiting for some one in the store. This is not realistic to me.

Preparation Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Forgot to add my Wife would also be involved in helping me-- She got skills lets leave it at that-

57

Not necessarily.

There aren’t many of us who can force all other people/strangers/possible attackers to stay at least 20-30 feet or more away from us at all times while we are out in public. It’s just not a practical possibility. And we probably shouldn’t be shooting somebody who is empty handed because they walked within 20 feet of us, even if we yelled at them to GET BACK because their gas pump was too close to ours

The reality is, very often out there in the real world, people are going to end up in close proximity to most of us

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58

Situation awareness is the key do not take your weapon where you would never go without your weapon

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59

I started martial arts in 1985 and except for a few breaks, have practiced regularly.
I’ve never had to pull my gun out for self-defense.
I’ve used my self-defense skills multiple times.
Once in a grocery store to protect another person who was being harassed. Once to get someone to take their hands off me. Plus a few others.
Sometimes, it’s not directly obvious but it’s the side benefits, like the increased balance that kept me from having a bad fall, to knowing how to break-fall when I did slip on the ice. Increased flexibility when skiing or when the boat was moving away from the dock, etc.

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60

I think the point being made is that hand-to-hand fighting should be avoided whenever possible. My instructors never said I would never be in a fight; they wanted me to avoid a fight whenever possible. And if I find myself within arm’s reach of an adversary, I’m going to do my best to break contact and get some distance.

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61

Some of us are incapable of engaging in hand-to-hand or knife-based combat. Age, infirmity, size, etc. But nice thought.

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