HAVE you Checked the changes in your CCW law

I went through a CCW requals class recently, and the changes in law in the state have been interesting. We were retrained on everything from affirmative defense, to your handgun permit. as an example. A weapon like the sig MPX sells as a pistol/handgun however it is not covered under the CCW handgun permit. in point of fact in a explanation of what LEO’s may know and what you are permitted to do. The new points in the law were in part as follows.:

  1. an officer can take you in for carrying a variety of machine pistol(semi auto) because they are not HANDGUNS! Then the point was made that under current law(some changes were just passed in may) you need a CCW for pistol (yet none exist at the current time, at least none I am aware of).

2)Knives were always at the discretion of the officer, but the prevailing thought had been, that if you had a CCW you could carry a knife . (under current law however OTF knives (out -the Front) and assisted knives may also need their own permit (also none exists at the moment, to my knowledge) FOR those carrying EDC bags, you could get arrested by what’s in the bag

  1. a great deal was made about two other points you can have a CCW get pulled over, be taken to the station and then released (Our reporting systems are not updating on weekends in this state). A class participant asked what happens if I am on my way to work and get fired for not showing up on time. The response was basically that hopefully when you are at the precinct a supervisor with more understanding would let you go (the routine stop didn’t need to go to the station) but even if you get a note. If the job fired you it was the price for having a CCW - deal with it.

  2. in our state now" printing" (having a weapon outline show under your clothes) is now the same as brandishing a weapon. An officer can arrest or cite you for “printing” This will undoubtedly insure your CCW is not renewed in the future.

  3. If you are involved in an incident, and lets suppose you have someone else call the police (for a host of state based reasons), andlets assume you are in-front of your house. (in our state houses have the castle doctrine-no need to retreat, HOWEVER every other place the law says you must retreat if it can be done safely). So back to the point you were in your front yard but you have paths to the right and left of your home. It is at night. The officers show up, you may be arrested because you did not retreat. In addition if the attacker was bigger than you and lets say you couldn’t retreat you may win, but if they are smaller than you, you may get arrested for something coming from a principle of disparities of force. which basically states
    1)if someone punches you in the nose punch them back , no harm no foul
    2)if they punch you , and you shoot them… you’re going for a ride to the gray bar hotel

  4. if you say you are in fear of your life, and the person is bigger (the force is with them) you may win your case (you will still loose your CCW)
    4)if you say you are in fear, and the person is smaller you will most likely go for a ride in the gray bar ferry to the hotel.
    5)if when the officers show up they see avenues of egress you did not see, you are going for a ride depending on how that officer files his report based upon what he sees. (note) his report may be unbiased but it is based upon perspective and yours is subject to complete examination

  5. lets say you were in a city at the mouth of an alley and you could retreat but it was through gang territory ( the law is waived since you would be putting yourself in danger)

In addition the law is modified that CCW means essentially no one knows ever that you have a weapon (other than possible wife or immediate family members).
Also note that in the signup for the class, there is a small amount of type that says per the state you are required to practice (at a range) once per month. So that innocent question from someone about your skill set could get you sent to jail, if you answer it wrong, and remember their will be a validating investigation.

also note that the more training you have (in my view the more responsible of a gun owner) the standard in the law now weights that somewhat against you. More training equals an ability to never be involved in an incident. Or as the instructor stated if you are thinking of going somewhere and think to put on your weapon. then do not go where you are thinking of going. (if you do and something happens, then your judgement is in question).

The law is being molded to insure that for CCW carry folks , it is a LIFESTYLE. Everyday you do abc (get up brush teeth, put on weapon, go out-) Everyday it is an everyday occurrence.

In addition we had a render aid clause in the law that has been modified, because the responding officers could assume if you are rendering aid that you are trying to destroy forensic crime scene evidence. In addition it will shift the incident from defense to your medical skill set, and if you were capable of the medical treatment you were giving, if you are capable (tactical medic,EMT,etc) the questions in part are did you give the right specific treatment at the time (you know ten doctors in a room and each may have a slightly different take on what is first. This is especially true if analyzing tactical medic treatments vs EMT style treatments) they look at different things to treat based upon normal environment they are used in.

Tactical may work on a farm 40 miles from a hospital, but emt standards may rule if you are in a suburb with hospitals 5 minutes away The choice may get you prosecuted in addition to the weapons charge or examination.

Officers investigate scences, investigations are for the purpose of determining what if any other violations of law may have occurred. if upon investigation it yields other charges, you will be charged. That is a big difference from officers investigate to determine the truth (this is not about officer bias, but training). Hence the following

  1. Be prepared to spend 1-3 days at the station after an incident (just officers doing their job)

2)speak when your lawyer says speak

and note for any past LEOS, and those with some past experience (DHS,FBI,DIA,CIA, Local and county Police, Sheriffs etc.) If you are a civilian training may go against you. Example from class. I asked- per a past understanding from training , fire until the threat is down or eliminated, however the law takes the position that when a person drops then the threat is eliminated… In conjunction I asked should the attacker be handcuffed or restrained. (per training). The thinking was (as we know) bullets do not kill people blood loss (exsanguination)does (in general) we also know handcuffs are employed because the human body tries to rework the issue of hurt and sometimes people regain consciousness (they wake up and get up, and continue on with destructive behavior)
However the new understanding per class is 1) definitely do not restrain or handcuff, and fire until they stop. which is different from until the threat is neutralized.

My only point is regardless of training or what you thought you knew, do you keep up with the current law our governor signed 200 bills in to law, he did this in May- he did this three times, and buried within those bills were subtle changes to the law that have a profound impact on a CCW and a persons right to exercise their 2 amendment freedoms.

The push of man to refine and analyze or do away with certain rights is here, the battle may be different than bullets and a gun, it may be what subtle changes in law mean for everyone

A final note: A bank robber gets shot by a security guard, he runs out of the bank, around the corner, through the parking lot,to the end of the parking lot. unlocks his car gets in turns on the ignition, and the dies on the steering wheel. The security guard shot the robber through the heart-- but look how far he went and what he did before he stopped!

We may need to do a better job of educating the general public about our sports and protections, because they are the ones judging us in court. and what they do not know can get you a new confined home

Do YOU KEEP up WITH YOUR LAW CHANGES

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I do keep up on changes in law for my state. What State are you in? Doesn’t sound like somewhere I’d like to be.

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I keep up with them each month.

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Maryland usa

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Seriously, I’m done going to Maryland. That’s just CRAZY.

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I keep up on the law and monitor when KY is in session. Effective tomorrow (6/27), KY no longer requires a permit to carry concealed. As long as you meet other legal requirements, such as age, felony convictions, etc.

Fortunately, our local Shop/Range offers free seminars on upcoming changes that may affect gun laws and permits. The last one I attended a couple of months age was about two hours and VERY informative of all the upcoming changes.

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I’m having a hard time following here so let’s start with the first. Why would you be surprised that a sub machinegun is not considered a lawful concealed handgun?

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Yes, I do all I can to keep up with changes in our laws as well as any state other than my own where I may be traveling.

There are few if any better resources for that than the USCCA reciprocity map.

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My problem is that when I visit my son in VA, I must travel through Maryland. I am actually in the state of Maryland on Interstate 70 for between 2 minutes and 45 seconds to 3 minutes and 20 seconds. Yes, I usually time the trip so see how long and it depends on both the traffic and whether I am driving or my wife is driving.

Yes, for that amount of time I actually lock my Glock in my car safe according to Federal Interstate Transportation laws.

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@J_Richard I have to drive through Illinois back and forth a couple times a month … similar problem. I gas up, check my tires and radiator, and hit the lady’s before I enter the state and try to never have a reason to get off the highway.

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Sounds ridiculous but better safe than facing felony charges for otherwise perfectly lawful and reasonable conduct.

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just a point of clarification , we are not talking about mpx sub machine guns , which is the sig current profile, but in the Gen 1 and Gen 2 versions they are semi auto, Gen 1 was in 9mm with a promise of caliber and barrel upgrade , which sig did not honor, and gen2 which allowed for barrel and caliber upgrade. Then later (now) you see a mpx advertised as leo/govt only which is now labeled sub. We are not questioning a category of sub machine gun as a handgun, but weapons like the gen 1 that based upon look are disqualified from carry, but based on purchase come under the handgun heading. Hence the confusion within what a ccw actually can cover, and the fact that there is no relief in the law, since a permit covering them does not exist. The distinction being used to make them illegal under a ccw is the distinction of handgun vs pistol. But the sale is as a handgun as opposed to a rifle

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Full auto or not it isn’t really what any reasonable person would consider to be a concealable handgun. It’s more in the class of an SBR particularly with the folding or extendable stock.

I don’t find that at all unreasonable.

In Texas we have legal carry of long guns openly but even here a concealed long gun or sub gun is going to find you cuffed and stuffed in probably every jurisdiction in the state.

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Today, Kentucky became the 16th state to legalize constitutional carry of firearms, open and concealed.
And, as an attorney approved by the FOP and USCCA, I do my best to stay abreast of changes in Kentucky and federal law that will affect citizens and police within the state.

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Say Hi to Texas, spent a bit of time there, and I loved it but I was around the Lubbock and Austin areas.
To the point though, there are only three types of weapon in essence, Bolt action, semi auto all handguns that are not revolvers and machine guns regardless of basis (meaning gas , blowback, spring etc.). So to frame the view as what all reasonable people would do (which changes from community to community , is the same problem people have with juries, hence juries of your peers (or community).

The point I am examining is you cannot have it both ways.

These weapons are sold under the ccw handgun law, not some nefarious unwritten “pistol” law. Where LEO are given a distinction that the ccw holder isn’t. The remedy that the law enforcement officers are told is the remedy doesn’t exist in law (but that never stopped someone from getting jammed up)

The weapons that are Gen1 or 2 (in the case of the Sig Example) are semi auto just like any handgun (regardless of a forearm brace or not --You can buy braces for handguns and extended clips etc. so from a perspective of similarity you are there.) In this state originally you couldn’t buy the gun with a brace (it added a state tax and made for a review of the classification, but you could buy one(a brace) aftermarket and keep the original classification) the point is if it is classified as a pistol it is removed from the “Handgun” ccw law even though it is a semi auto (like all handguns, and a lot of rifles).

I have no objection to this if there is a means to register the weapon for carry ie. a “ccw for pistol” otherwise put it in the category of rifle. (doesn’t mean I want to carry it ,I just want equity, and the ability to not have our rights eroded)

To be clear I would not want to carry the weapon it is the inequity in the law, and the point that an unaware ccw holder will get picked up and possibly confined without knowing he did anything wrong.

In addition -to the community that does not support the second amendment (in a strong way-(opinion added))it gives the gun grabbers another inroad into eliminating gun holder rights. They (our rights) have been whittled away by treachery.

That is the actual drill- down point. this was a bill passed essentially in the middle of the night that hurts all ccw holders under the guise of reasonableness to someone, while destroying rights and giving no one a chance fight or discuss the bill… Behind that fact at least locally is that the governor supposedly supports gun rights (publicly) but does these night deals that are different than what he professes, and this is in a state where the state constitution has in it, that all members of public office support the United States Constitution (which obviously includes the second) and it is violated at will by the politicians.

Law enforcement (which is a tougher job than many have any understanding of) become political pawns. If they do the job, using inadequate laws, you will have court cases, they will look bad(undeservedly). The politicians know what they do, in this state at the same time they put out this legislation, people tried to eliminate the handgun license review board. By the grace of God they failed in this “MAY issue state”). in a state of 6+million people,ccw holders are 17K which is .0028 of the population. This state has the 3rd highest death rate in the nation, and states safe rates or areas can be tied directly to not having GUN FREE zones (Example NYPOST STUDY on the issue, or most assaults with ar styled weapons etc. Colorado killer passed no less than 3 gun carrying areas to get to the GUN Free Theater area of his chosen killing field

The point being do not put ccw holders in an unwinnable position, especially based on historical weapons without clarification, and or a remedy. To do this is an act of tyranny (governmental tyranny)*1, and is at least 1 aspect of fear the original founding fathers had.
It is also a supported methodology in all failings of "free or limited free societies to some other form of no rights governments. (Guns and Laws )*1

Both protections (Guns and Laws) need to function to stave off violence.

The numerical numbers do not support the fabricated political outcry that weapons are bad, or ccw holders are bad(especially since it has been proven they are the most law abiding segment of the society)*2. CCW needs to be treated fairly at all levels not just a people who accept the surface of a law change without looking at the long term and short term ramifications. The founding fathers had it right with the 2A and ccw is getting eaten up state by state which is not just a ccw issue it is an all American constitutional issue (most just don’t know it , I fear we are powerless to change the lie.

*1 =Resistance to Tyranny- Joseph P. Martino-- Real Good Book , formation of all Governments, that removed weapons from the society includes world wars and other communist, socialist , other non free etc , all numbers and categories available up to 1990

*2(NRA) or John Lott “The Bias against Guns” foremost expert on the subject, as exampled nothing is every reported about aprox 2 million defensive gun life saving victories each year(p53), or the fact that fewer than 1 out of every thousand defensive gun uses results in the attackers death(p24) etc etc.

PS Thanks for being able to discuss seriously

love you opinion on my response, Thanks

amen (in my opinion to Kentucky) I would love your view on my most recent response to wild rose. Interesting Weapons owners can discuss, those who don’t want then seem often times to not be able to. Interesting

@Dr_Richard I agree the way the laws are written are very ambiguous and hard to navigate. In my view, there are long guns with 16+ inch barrels, handguns with less than 16 inch barrels which are pistols and revolvers and then there are NFA firearms, generally machine guns and SBRs. An AR or AK pistol is a handgun if it is not a SBR with traits that are covered under the NFA, many of which are ridiculous themselves (ie a cheek rest as opposed to a butt stock).

YAY!!! Congratulations!

The laws are written almost exclusively by anti gun rights people with little to know knowledge or understanding of firearms.

Once new laws are passed they are sent to the ATF where the reg’s are drawn by people who generally do understand the subject matter but they are forced to try and write the reg’s such that they are consistent with the text and intent of the legislation.

The result then is usually is a mishmash of mostly gobbletygook that is at best nonsensical.

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