Current state of the world with rising anti-semitism

If an armed individual walks into a restaurant brandishing a firearm and demanding to know, “Who’s Jewish?,” would it be an act of self-defense to draw and fire? Must he point the gun at me to make my shooting an act of self-defense? What if he shoots someone else in the restaurant, is that enough for me to take action in fear for my life?


As soon as he draws a weapon and points it at anyone it becomes an act for self-defense.


:point_up: to all the questions.


In Utah it’s what would a “Reasonable Person” do. I would think, in todays world, a “Reasonable Person” would believe he was going to use the fire arm…


I think I must explain…

Yes, it will be self defense… however you must explain why did you reasonably believe you were in immediate danger of imminent death, bodily injury, or serious bodily harm.

Yes, and no explanations needed

yes… however it’s too late… you should shoot while answering first question.


Not necessarily “you” for it to become “self-“ defense


Whoever pressed the trigger…

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Utah Law is pretty clear about that. It says “…to the individual or another individual…”.

76-2-402. Force in defense of person – Forcible felony defined.

(1) As used in this section:

(a) “Forcible felony” means aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Individual, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.

(b) “Forcible felony” includes any other felony offense that involves the use of force or violence against an individual that poses a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury.

(c) “Forcible felony” does not include burglary of a vehicle, as defined in Section 76-6-204, unless the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.

(2) (a) An individual is justified in threatening or using force against another individual when and to the extent that the individual reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the individual or another individual against the imminent use of unlawful force.

(b) An individual is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the individual reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the individual or another individual as a result of imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.


Now I have to do a deeper dive into California law where the rules of engagement might be like the leftist generals imposed in Iraq and Afghanistan: don’t shoot until fired upon (or some other BS).


Depends if he’s wearing a Tax the Rich AOC shirt. :grinning:


That’s where I have nonchalantly upholstered my 19.


That’s not the real question of the day! What happened when twelve assh@les walk in, anywhere in our country and demand anything?





They are not going to use any of us on the jury. There aren’t three people in this community that would be allowed to sit jury (other than the trolls, of course.

I would say at the time you began to fear for your life, would be “justified” using self defense. (Understand if the protection device is drawn, it does not need to be used). Sad part is the"reasonable prudent person" that sits waiting to agree or disagree with your decision has made up their mind at the selection process.


I will explain it to you the way it was explained to me.
If you have the time to question yourself if your life is in danger don’t shoot.
To answer your question, shoot or no shoot? Only you can answer. It is a good question.
Unfortunately it cannot be determined beforehand. The best way I know how to train is to have targets that are shoot and ones that are no shoots.


I love that movie Grand Torino


You can’t know until the prosecutor decides whether to prosecute you or not and whether a trier of fact (a judge or jury) decides to convict you or not. Everything else is just legal speculation.

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That’s pretty much what we had on the jury I was on, I’ll add to that, 8 of the 12 were 100% ignorant, had never shot a firearm or in a few case had never held a firearm.


In the case the OP posted, I’d immediately be going for cover, drawing my firearm and preparing to stop the threat. I don’t think there’s a reasonable person in the country who, in this age of mass shootings, wouldn’t assume a mass shooting was about to take place.

I read the news these days, and truly don’t know what to make of the world.

Three years ago I watched as the police were vilified, and crime took an awful turn. Two and a half years ago I had chosen my daily carry weapons, taken training and joined the USCCA- going all-in on becoming a daily carrier. My home was already well protected, and I enjoyed firearms as a hobby over the years, just never as a daily carrier. I had chosen a pair of small revolvers and still use them every day. I became very proficient with them, and for a little while, felt as protected as I could be out and about.

Now I look at the country and I wish we were only worrying about gang bangers and car jackers. They seem downright quaint, just wanting money or a car. I don’t know where to begin trying to be ready for “death to America” jihadists, anti-semites, and all the millions of dangerous “God-knows-whom” people that have flooded this country.

I hate to say it, but our own freedom is becoming our downfall. Before globalization and the internet, Americans talked with each other, face to face, and exchanged ideas. We knew who we were talking to, and from whom we were getting our information. Our system was built for that. Now a whole generation is getting all their information from a video app run by the CCP or a social media site run by a globalist who hates this country. No one knows the source of anything anymore, and I do truly believe that our enemies (of whom there are MANY) are being way smarter about this global technology than we are, and they’re tearing us apart with it. I could never imagine, having studied history, that I’d be living the later part of my life in a country where hatred and anti-semitism (and the risks that come with that) would be so real.

Anyway, I guess I need a new carry gun that’ll be good against an army of anti-semitic death to America jihadists. :frowning:


Joseph, Thank you for the thoughtful response. And thank you to those who chose to reply, I appreciated your input. It’s true, whether an anti-semite or just “a plain old crazy with a gun” hell bent on mass murder, being prepared is a must. The usual caveats apply: avoid “trouble” spots when you can and, if not, evade, escape or defend as best you can. Joseph, you mention the changing world we live in and I can’t agree more. I too saw the handwriting on the wall and 2+ years ago started down the road to self defense. In Kalifornia, getting a CCW can be a challenge but there are some counties where the process isn’t overwhelming. An initial course with live fire (shotgun, rifle, handgun) was the first step, then spending time at the range (far and few between in my area) and finally qualifying for my CCW permit with 2 revolvers (5 shot .357 and 7 shot 9mm using moon clips, a Smith&Wesson 986). Now, my wife and I frequently say that we’re glad to be 70 (but we’ve been saying that for almost 10 years!!). The current USA is not the country I grew up with in the early 50s and 60s. Will we be able to turn it around? I don’t know but pray that the Republic can make a comeback. All my best to the community. Stay safe.


You and your wife stay safe too, brother, and I’m glad for you both that you were able to jump through all the hoops to get your CCW license in Kalifornia. Let’s all just keep doing the best we can to defend ourselves and loved ones, pray for our country and our people, and keep up with whatever we ourselves are able to do, whatever that might be, to right the ship.