Another self defense incident that should not have had to happen

What is not to understand. Can you point out specifics

@Robert1246 .
This is what I don’t undesrtand:

So what is the reason you carry the firearm, if you denying using is when it is need to be used.

if somebody is threatening your friend saying “I will kill you if you don’t give me your wallet”, then you are pat down by the assailant, knowing he’s got a firearm… what would do? Because reading your posts it’s hard to find the answer what would you do.
And what is the reason you carry firearm if you are not planing to use it in the situation when it can / should be used.

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How exactly would you have gone about confronting someone that you suspect is up to no good but has not made a clearly aggressive move against you? In this situation would you have confronted the two men as they were speaking to each other outside the store? When they came inside after you entered? It sounds like there was no clear approach made by the criminal until after everyone exited the store. I could see confronting him then. But at that point this guy was likely already locked on and set on acting aggressively.

You might not be offended by being confronted but I have run into quite a few easily offended people. Confronting someone before they make an obvious approach could potentially create a situation that didn’t exist in the first place. It could also make you look like the initiating aggressor to any witnesses.

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By acknowledging them, and letting them know you acknowledge them.

One scenario I can think of is I work at a gas station, I work alone majority of the time, I’ve already told people, if I see somebody out back, on the camera I’m going back there and confronting them, saying “Hey how ya doing” or just to check up on them. By doing that, I can get a good description of who they are.

So if I’m robbed in the future, or somebody else, and it’s him, I have something tangible to kind of go off, but most likely when somebody is thinking about doing something, and you’ve acknowledged them, your cover is blown, your having 2nd thoughts.

Just made a soft target a hard target.

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I do this all the time. If I catch someone keeping an eye on me I give them a nod or howdy. But I think there is a big difference between acknowledging someone and confronting someone.

Not saying there aren’t times that you should confront someone. But I wouldn’t aggressively confront someone until they have clearly chosen me as the target and started to close in.

In this situation with the two sketchy guys at the door I likely would have walked away and chosen another store.

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I am not sure I have the words to explain it but I will try. My goal is to stop people from murdering. In this situation ironically the gun failed. My opinion is it is a better way to describe my intent of carrying, is if the gun was working. I would not want to describe my reason for carry a gun in a situation where my life was not in jeopardy and only thought my life was in jeopardy.
Please don’t hesitate to ask more questions if you don’t understand.

I would have done the same thing in this situation. It is not the reason I would use to show why I carry. Discussion creates community.

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OK. Somehow I got this.
Each of us has own thinking, ideas and also reason for carrying.
I’m not judging your decision at this moment, just would like to continue the discussion about reasons for carrying.

The main idea of carrying is saving lives and / or avoid serious bodily injury. So using simple words - we use deadly force to stop deadly violence.
My understanding is that I don’t need to wait to find out if assailant’s deadly tool is in working condition. If I believe that usage of the tool can harm me or my friend… I just act using my deadly force. And that was what actually happened in Detroit.
The other thing - how we decide if our life is in the jeopardy? After somebody shots or sticks a knife on me… or seconds before? I’m guessing this question was asked long time ago and the Law explained it clearly:
Deadly force is justified when undertaken to prevent imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent .
Additionally we still use reasonable person standard, meaning any clearly thinking person being threatened using deadly force can and will react with deadly force if posses one.

I think there is no time for mercy or hesitation. There is only one, single life and if you want to save it, you just do everything to do so.
I personally, when carry I know I will use it. If I doubt (almost never after last 3 years of carrying) I either stay home or do the job that doesn’t allow me to carry.

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So if I interpret your statement correctly, you are saying that unless a person’s life is threatened you would not use your firearm. I agree. But if the perp tries to pat you down for more to steal that would be a completely different situation. Would he try for your gun? Would he just start blasting away? The question is, are you willing to take that chance that this punk would not escalate and put you in harms way?

I’d do what my training has taught me. Defend my ass and my buddies’ ass.

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If you are asking if I would consider it deadly? I can not tell from sitting in my home. I don’t know if that is an issue I have or is normal. Maybe you are making a statement.

I’ll bet he’s a laughingstock in gen-pop. And he’ll have time for his new name to take hold.

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Suppose you are on the jury, trying this case. What charge would you be willing to convict on?

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I totally agree with you Jerzy, it is impossible for us to tell if he could have acted differently at that time, in those cirsumstances.
Still, looking from several angles, the overall outcome: shots fired anyway. From legal perspective, the defender tried his best to avoid violence. From tactical perspective, things devolved to close quarters, and thats pretty bad!
I understand deescalation when you hear “hey you come here!”, and you keep walking. I understand tossing the wallet 10 ft and running away. But the guy waited until the predator laid his hands on him. This is not something I can praise.
I dont mean to 2nd guess his actions, only writing this as mental exercise of self-defence scenario.

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You are right about wrong tactical approach. These days we cannot live in “condition white” anymore. We must be prepare to avoid things, even sometimes everything seems to be safe.

I read about that incident on few different portals to get as much information as possible and what amazed me, the victim said the guy was wearing “ski mask”. What should be the first trigger to avoid the whole situation. But as mentioned before, hard or almost impossible to be in CPL holder’s shoes. We can only speculate and come to conclusions how to avoid similar situations.

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Without a trial, I wouldn’t be willing to convict, but if he was guilty, I will convict him on whatever they was guilty of.:thinking:

Gross Criminal Stupidity!

What?!

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You all made me think of how would I prepare for a scenario where a

“perpetrator has either a knife or gun already drawn on me and begins to pat me down where my side arm is?”

What’s my next move, what do I do?

Worthy of a different/separate thread? Any training videos on that one?

Shame on me if I get caught off guard.

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Good point sir. To be caught off guard and have the perp come up to you and pat you down is a tactical error on the citizen’s part - if that is indeed what happened. We really don’t know. One of the first lessons I learned is to create distance between yourself and the “problem”. Throw your wallet on the ground if you have to but put some space between you and the perp.

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That’s where having more options than just firearms skills comes in handy. Based on my limited martial arts training, if a criminal got the drop on me with a knife or firearm pointed at me within close reach, I would first try to create a distraction (toss my wallet, look over his shoulder like someone is coming up behind him, act like I’m having a heart attack, etc.) to get the weapon directed away from me. If I was able to gain enough distance with the distraction I would use the opening to run and/or get to my firearm. If the distraction doesn’t get me enough time and distance and I am not 100% certain that compliance gets me and everyone I am with out of the situation unharmed then I would move to physically disarm and harm the attacker at the first available opening.

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