What is not to understand. Can you point out specifics
@Robert1246 .
This is what I donāt undesrtand:
So what is the reason you carry the firearm, if you denying using is when it is need to be used.
if somebody is threatening your friend saying āI will kill you if you donāt give me your walletā, then you are pat down by the assailant, knowing heās got a firearmā¦ what would do? Because reading your posts itās hard to find the answer what would you do.
And what is the reason you carry firearm if you are not planing to use it in the situation when it can / should be used.
6 Likes
How exactly would you have gone about confronting someone that you suspect is up to no good but has not made a clearly aggressive move against you? In this situation would you have confronted the two men as they were speaking to each other outside the store? When they came inside after you entered? It sounds like there was no clear approach made by the criminal until after everyone exited the store. I could see confronting him then. But at that point this guy was likely already locked on and set on acting aggressively.
You might not be offended by being confronted but I have run into quite a few easily offended people. Confronting someone before they make an obvious approach could potentially create a situation that didnāt exist in the first place. It could also make you look like the initiating aggressor to any witnesses.
6 Likes
By acknowledging them, and letting them know you acknowledge them.
One scenario I can think of is I work at a gas station, I work alone majority of the time, Iāve already told people, if I see somebody out back, on the camera Iām going back there and confronting them, saying āHey how ya doingā or just to check up on them. By doing that, I can get a good description of who they are.
So if Iām robbed in the future, or somebody else, and itās him, I have something tangible to kind of go off, but most likely when somebody is thinking about doing something, and youāve acknowledged them, your cover is blown, your having 2nd thoughts.
Just made a soft target a hard target.
2 Likes
I do this all the time. If I catch someone keeping an eye on me I give them a nod or howdy. But I think there is a big difference between acknowledging someone and confronting someone.
Not saying there arenāt times that you should confront someone. But I wouldnāt aggressively confront someone until they have clearly chosen me as the target and started to close in.
In this situation with the two sketchy guys at the door I likely would have walked away and chosen another store.
6 Likes
I am not sure I have the words to explain it but I will try. My goal is to stop people from murdering. In this situation ironically the gun failed. My opinion is it is a better way to describe my intent of carrying, is if the gun was working. I would not want to describe my reason for carry a gun in a situation where my life was not in jeopardy and only thought my life was in jeopardy.
Please donāt hesitate to ask more questions if you donāt understand.
I would have done the same thing in this situation. It is not the reason I would use to show why I carry. Discussion creates community.
2 Likes
OK. Somehow I got this.
Each of us has own thinking, ideas and also reason for carrying.
Iām not judging your decision at this moment, just would like to continue the discussion about reasons for carrying.
The main idea of carrying is saving lives and / or avoid serious bodily injury. So using simple words - we use deadly force to stop deadly violence.
My understanding is that I donāt need to wait to find out if assailantās deadly tool is in working condition. If I believe that usage of the tool can harm me or my friendā¦ I just act using my deadly force. And that was what actually happened in Detroit.
The other thing - how we decide if our life is in the jeopardy? After somebody shots or sticks a knife on meā¦ or seconds before? Iām guessing this question was asked long time ago and the Law explained it clearly:
Deadly force is justified when undertaken to prevent imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent .
Additionally we still use reasonable person standard, meaning any clearly thinking person being threatened using deadly force can and will react with deadly force if posses one.
I think there is no time for mercy or hesitation. There is only one, single life and if you want to save it, you just do everything to do so.
I personally, when carry I know I will use it. If I doubt (almost never after last 3 years of carrying) I either stay home or do the job that doesnāt allow me to carry.
3 Likes
So if I interpret your statement correctly, you are saying that unless a personās life is threatened you would not use your firearm. I agree. But if the perp tries to pat you down for more to steal that would be a completely different situation. Would he try for your gun? Would he just start blasting away? The question is, are you willing to take that chance that this punk would not escalate and put you in harms way?
Iād do what my training has taught me. Defend my ass and my buddiesā ass.
3 Likes
If you are asking if I would consider it deadly? I can not tell from sitting in my home. I donāt know if that is an issue I have or is normal. Maybe you are making a statement.
Iāll bet heās a laughingstock in gen-pop. And heāll have time for his new name to take hold.
2 Likes
Suppose you are on the jury, trying this case. What charge would you be willing to convict on?
1 Like
I totally agree with you Jerzy, it is impossible for us to tell if he could have acted differently at that time, in those cirsumstances.
Still, looking from several angles, the overall outcome: shots fired anyway. From legal perspective, the defender tried his best to avoid violence. From tactical perspective, things devolved to close quarters, and thats pretty bad!
I understand deescalation when you hear āhey you come here!ā, and you keep walking. I understand tossing the wallet 10 ft and running away. But the guy waited until the predator laid his hands on him. This is not something I can praise.
I dont mean to 2nd guess his actions, only writing this as mental exercise of self-defence scenario.
3 Likes
You are right about wrong tactical approach. These days we cannot live in ācondition whiteā anymore. We must be prepare to avoid things, even sometimes everything seems to be safe.
I read about that incident on few different portals to get as much information as possible and what amazed me, the victim said the guy was wearing āski maskā. What should be the first trigger to avoid the whole situation. But as mentioned before, hard or almost impossible to be in CPL holderās shoes. We can only speculate and come to conclusions how to avoid similar situations.
3 Likes
Without a trial, I wouldnāt be willing to convict, but if he was guilty, I will convict him on whatever they was guilty of.
Gross Criminal Stupidity!
What?!
1 Like
You all made me think of how would I prepare for a scenario where a
āperpetrator has either a knife or gun already drawn on me and begins to pat me down where my side arm is?ā
Whatās my next move, what do I do?
Worthy of a different/separate thread? Any training videos on that one?
Shame on me if I get caught off guard.
1 Like
Good point sir. To be caught off guard and have the perp come up to you and pat you down is a tactical error on the citizenās part - if that is indeed what happened. We really donāt know. One of the first lessons I learned is to create distance between yourself and the āproblemā. Throw your wallet on the ground if you have to but put some space between you and the perp.
3 Likes
Thatās where having more options than just firearms skills comes in handy. Based on my limited martial arts training, if a criminal got the drop on me with a knife or firearm pointed at me within close reach, I would first try to create a distraction (toss my wallet, look over his shoulder like someone is coming up behind him, act like Iām having a heart attack, etc.) to get the weapon directed away from me. If I was able to gain enough distance with the distraction I would use the opening to run and/or get to my firearm. If the distraction doesnāt get me enough time and distance and I am not 100% certain that compliance gets me and everyone I am with out of the situation unharmed then I would move to physically disarm and harm the attacker at the first available opening.
2 Likes