Point well made and a good reminder.
I would add the following: don’t do stupid things with stupid people at stupid places during stupid times.
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Im a total loaner anymore and have been for years. All my friends are dead im medically retired and have no desire to go anywhere anymore unless its to my sons or store or Dr. something like that but I always wear a hoodie w/a front pocket with my hands around the grip of whatever Im carrying and other hand on some nasty pepper spray to make them lose some contrl. of their eyes before I go to work on their sorry azz if need be. But there are no guarantees in life and tabels can be turned on me anytime, there may be someone that could hit me in the back of my head while its all goin on who knows. All I can do is my best at 63 and half sick. But like I said avoiding it all is my first plan.
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That’s why CONCEALED carry.
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This savage deserves to be executed, however the victim was part of the problem as well. Dykes (the victim,) didn’t conceal his gun properly, and he didn’t have proper situational awareness, and based on what happened it seems that he didn’t have a holster or wasn’t using a holster with good retention. Of course I am assuming, however you must heighten your situational awareness, keep your head on a swivel, keep retention of your firearm. I’m sure that the thug, has a record a mile long.
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Mark 712. BLESS YOU. I pray you have blessed journeys and it sounds like you are on top of it at least you know the United States of America has never been more DANGEROUS take care Bobby Jean 
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I Just Seen the sad act of a 17 year old taking a gun away from a man and killing him with it and I have paid attention for a change before I open my mouth and put my foot in it ! The truth is that 17 year old !! Monster !! Was going to kill steal and Destroy!! Any one that he could and if we put him to Death! We would be letting him get away with killing that man! Life is hard ! But prison is death slowly! And we all are doing time! But in a cage that is Hell! So if we can not get back to public ! Fire in squad’s! we need to Lock up killer’s! For Life! For the,rest of their life! A LIFE FOR A LIFE 
and stop putting monsters to sleep like! We Care about how they feel! We need to get back to JUSTICE 
an eye for an eye so monster’s know HELL IS THERE 
Bobby Jean, just make very sure they did the crime 
AMEN
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You are so right I open carry and I know I feel that chill all the time! And I am always asking my wife to watch my six and I have little mirrors on my bandanna so I can see more to my sides they stick where I put them I should have them patented ! Till the sun hits them just right! Let’s just face it we have to make a plan every day for every situation! And remember Glass windows and reflections can help us to be aware of our surroundings ! I have figured out slow down and pay attention ! I feel like I live in orange & red awareness ! For every one not just my self it’s getting very scary !! I pray all the time please do not blame anyone for a monster hurting or killing please people ! Blame the monster that is to blame truly!! Bobby Jean
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jeff252. I See Law enforcement carrying openly and I KNOW that tin star 
does not make them any safer!! If fact law enforcement has been targeted ! When a monster comes hard at you getting your gun out May be not doable in fact just having my leather jacket over my gun belt all most cost me my life and the only thing that saved my life was that I had a knife necklace that I was able to stick in his eye and he had already had my long hair and my head was going to the ground PDQ so to each WHATS rite for you is what matters ! We keep saying what we did wrong it’s what the monsters are doing to us all , none of us that get hurt or killed are stupid! Every one that is a USCCA member is trying, openly or concealed amen Bobby Jean
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Tragic decision that forever alters the lives of two families. If he gets my gun and takes off I call 911.
I wonder if the owner had one in the chamber…does anyone know?
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I kinda am on the side of open carry and here is my scenario…
Average store 9 customer’s, 3 carrying concealed. Armed person comes in w/partner. They state “this is a robbery if everyone is cool no one will get hurt” they clean the cash drawer and head out the door. As the 2nd one leaves he/she reaches back, not looking and shoots one round into the store striking a customer before disappearing out of sight.
Now since the suspects are no longer in the store and fleeing, you by law are not alowwed to pursue and shoot nor since they stated that they had no intent to harm would a person carrying concealed be justified in drawing and shooting, since your not supposed to defend property.
So carrying concealed in this instance offered no help.
Same scenario except the 3 carrying are now carrying open. The persons walk in and when they notice that 3 people are armed and realize the absolute possibility of a gun fight if the try to carry out their plans quickly retreat with no action taken.
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I wish the average was 1/3 of people carrying. It’s not, though. Maybe if you are in a gun store.
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Well I’m in a rural farming community and I’d almost bet a dollar to a dog nut that on average around here 3 would be if there was only 4 in the store. I’d guess 65 - 80% of the adult population carries.
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Couple of don’rs here. Don’t carry in a way that anyone can e aware of. Don’t chase after the guy who has a gun when you don’t.
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I think one could draw and fire in Utah.
From Utah Code:
Effective 5/4/2022
76-2-402. Force in defense of person – Forcible felony defined.
(1) As used in this section:
(a) “Forcible felony” means aggravated assault, mayhem, aggravated murder, murder, manslaughter, kidnapping and aggravated kidnapping, rape, forcible sodomy, rape of a child, object rape, object rape of a child, sexual abuse of a child, aggravated sexual abuse of a child, and aggravated sexual assault as defined in Chapter 5, Offenses Against the Individual, and arson, robbery, and burglary as defined in Chapter 6, Offenses Against Property.
(b) “Forcible felony” includes any other felony offense that involves the use of force or violence against an individual that poses a substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury.
(c) “Forcible felony” does not include burglary of a vehicle, as defined in Section 76-6-204, unless the vehicle is occupied at the time unlawful entry is made or attempted.
(2) (a) An individual is justified in threatening or using force against another individual when and to the extent that the individual reasonably believes that force or a threat of force is necessary to defend the individual or another individual against the imminent use of unlawful force.
(b) An individual is justified in using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if the individual reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury to the individual or another individual as a result of imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
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That would probably depend on whether it was an election yr or not… Lol
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I think pointing guns at innocent people is a clear indication that they are prepared to harm someone. The victims would have to decide if they should trust the “peaceful intent” coming out of the criminals mouths or react to the violent assault in progress. Not the easiest decision when violent criminals have the drop on you.
I think open carry might have some deterrence value in some cases. But most open carry happens in low crime rural areas. Not sure how it would play out in high crime urban areas. A gun is a valuable item to a criminal. From what I have read they are worth a lot more on the black market than new at the gun store. So that’s a big score for a desperate junky in need of a fix. Or a big force multiplier for a criminal looking to up their game from petty crime or to protect themselves from the other armed criminals on the street.
So while open carry might deter some criminals I think it could also have the opposite effect, similar to someone dangling a fancy purse from their shoulder or wearing a thick gold chain around their neck. Now if those same criminals knew that they had a very high chance of encountering armed people in the store but had no idea which ones were carrying, that might create enough risk and uncertainty for them to consider a new career path. Especially if the media would start reporting on all the cases were armed citizens successfully defend themselves and others every day.
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The presence of a firearm, in spite of the fake “no one will get hurt” announcement, means it’s no longer a property crime.
The only remaining issue is how one wisely draws on a drawn gun.
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Similarly, LE targets criminals.
I still am amazed at a little chat I had with my daughter’s friend who’s with PD next town. His insights enhanced my situational awareness.
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We have had this discussion on many other threads. As firearm owners we may have options on carry or not depending on state laws. Further, if one does have options, it is up to the individual to decide what is “stupid”, or not, and how to carry. We all have different opinions and carry various ways depending on circumstances.
There are numerous stories of crimes being thwarted when a holstered firearm is seen by the perp. There are also numerous stories where the perp did not notice the OC firearm and paid dearly for choosing the wrong victim. Typically when we read about an OC person being a victim of a gun grab it is due to poor/no retention/no holster/grip sticking out of a pocket and no situtational awareness.
The most recent thread before this one was where an off-duty officer had her handgun stuck in her back pocket. She was in a convenience store while talking on her phone. She was not paying attention to anything nor anyone in the store, let alone the one person closest to her that was clearly looking for the right time to snatch the handgun.
Stuational awareness will not prevent every crime, but likely would have prevented this incident and the one I just mentioned. As well as using a holster and one with proper retention for OC. Many CC holsters only have friction retention, so if a perp gets ahold of it, you will likely lose it then, too.
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The presence of a gun means it’s goes from robbery to armed/aggravated. Unless human life is threatened and only “property” is the target then until they threaten you/others in Ohio you cannot claim to be in fear of you life or bodily harm therefore your use of deadly force is unlawful! (which is bullshit) but since we’re members of a defense shooting defensive organization and know that even if we are 100% within the law when envoled in a defensive shooting that we stand a good chance of being brought up on charges
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