Ammo: What's in a name?

Guns & Gear Gear
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Zombie Killer – R.I.P. – Jihawg

What do those three ammo’s have in common? They can add extra scrutiny to your legal defense of a physical self-defense situation. The names aren’t the only thing that will draw attention to the third ammo listed above.

Jihawg ammo’s claim to fame is “gun cartridges that are made with pork products and advertised as being a deterrent to potential terrorists who may not eat pork because of their religious beliefs.”

According to the article, it was meant to be a sarcastic/tongue-in-cheek thing. Something like that will definitely not help your legal defense.

So what brand of ammo should you use? KISS - keep it simple:
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/defensive-ammunition-keep-it-simple/

What brand of ammunition do your local law enforcement officers use?

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Federal HST, same stuff I use. I have a friend who claims R.I.P. rounds won’t be an issue if used for self defense though. I disagree with him, but he’s a reserve deputy so he’s going to get afforded extra leniency/legal protection than I would.

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I’ve not been a fan of these marketing gimmicks since they began as they are designed to attract people that we frankly don’t really need being drawn to the firearms community or not.

We’ve raised a sub class of young people that seem to have spent so much time on various role playing "reality games’ on their computers that they have become rather warped and somewhat disassociated from the rest of us consider to be reality.

Now from a legal standpoint I think using such ammo sends a message to police and prosecutors that you probably belong in the above group and rather than being “Responsibly Armed American” exercisign their rights including the right to carry in your own defense and others, you are a predator looking for any chance to shoot someone because you think you can get away with it by claiming SD.

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All of these ammunition with the hyped up names might not do any harm, but they will certainly do no good while trying to convince others that you’re just a peace living person who never looks for trouble. Appearances often override reality, justified or no.

I think I’ll enquire as to what our local LEO’s carry. It couldn’t hurt.

Regards.
“A wayfarer should not walk unarmed, but have his weapons to hand. He knows not when he may need a spear, or what menace meet on the road.”

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Another aspect of this is the weapons themselves. I’m thinking of the ones I’ve seen with skull and crossbones or grim reaper engraved on the grips of slide. That could also send the wrong sort of message to someone out to disparage you.and

Regards.

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Thank you David38!

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f one owns RIP, Civil Defense, Civic Defense and other ammo that fragments upon entry; are law-abiding citizens, have trained and qualified to acquire ones legal right to own and carry a firearm openly or concealed; ones should not have a legal problem, however, If one does, one has horrible legal representation. Here is why…

The ballistics data supporting RIP ammo grossly outweigh popular ammo that over penetrates using the same testing medium. Brass Fetcher, as well as other ballistic test, proved it. I advise gun owners and 2nd Amendment lawyers to download such data if they have not already.

An attorney with this critical data would have no issues focusing the jury’s attention on how RIP performs, contrary to the name and or its appearance. This same attorney would compare RIP, to the standard ball and hollow-point type ammo that sometimes fails to mushroom upon impact, performing like ball ammo where incidents of hollow points and ball ammo have over-penetrated an intended target, unfortunately striking an innocent bystander, severely injuring or killing them.

The dogma that cloaks popular hollow-point brands while comparing them to RIP IMO would justify the use of RIP. We all have watched the videos and the commentary stating that RIP does not penetrate deep enough to kill a bad guy. Instead, some gun owners would prefer to walk around with Lehigh Extreme Penetrators, Hornady Critical Defense, both advertised to penetrate barriers such as steel. Not to mention, they both as well as Critical Duty and Federal HST all exceeded 20 inches of penetration in 10% ballistic gel test (FBI standard) with a barrier such as denim is in front of the intended target (10% ballistic gel). However, the RIP round performed as it should 10% Ballistic gel, bare and with a barrier such as denim is in front of the intended target (13 to 14 inches of penetration). When in doubt think like a prosecutor!

Should one not use AR-10 or 15 rifles to defend one’s home or property, because of the “AR” is perceived by the unlearned to mean Automatic Rifle? Should this cause one use a shotgun or bolt-action rifle instead, to keep it simple?

The most significant problem IMO with a jury is not the ammo; it is the 2nd Amendment style t-shirts worn by many on their social media platforms, at the range, family reunions, grocery stores, or outside to walk the dog. That would put one in a jury jam, not the legal use of ammo created for performance and safety regardless of its name.

Scrap the t-shirts keep the ammo.

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Indeed and it can certainly work against you with the DA, Judge, and Jury should you ever use it in self defense.

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I’ll have to disagree. All it requires is the prosecutor, or plaintiff atty doing a good job selling to the Jury that you intentionally used ammo made to cause excessive or grievous injury showing your intent not just to act in lawful self defense but to inflict as much injury as possible and or/death.

Remember in most jurisdictions you’re not likely to get a jury predisposed to accept your plea of self defense and very likely one predisposed to believe you acted unlawfully.

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And a plaintiff atty doing a good job selling to the Jury that you intentionally used ammo ( Lehigh Extreme Penetrators, Hornady Critical Defense Critical Duty and Federal HST ) made to cause excessive or grievous injury and potentially harming others via over-penetration , showing your intent not just to act in lawful self defense but to inflict as much injury as possible and or/death of unintended victims.

A good defense will argue the efficacy of the RIP ammo compared to other ammo of it’s caliber especially if the “Self Defense” encounter occurred in a crowded public and or residential space.

Yeah, I’m sticking with RIP; scrap the I’m a badass and will shoot you dead t-shirts!

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The problem is that all of those except the Leigh Extrem Penetrators are specifically made not to over penetrate.

Stick with what you want, all I can do is try to help you keep yourself out of prison and bankruptcy.

If you ever end up in a defensive shooting every aspect of your life is going to be gone over with a fine toothed comb.

Every decision you made up to that point relative to self defense will be a factor in deciding to charge you and beyond that will be a factor in whether you are convicted or not as well as used against you in any potential lawsuit.

There’s no reason to do anything that puts you at a higher risk of being convicted or losing a civil action and no reason at all to make your attorney’s job any tougher.

We’re all free to choose but I will always advise people to take the path that is more likely to lead them to a successful outcome all the way around.

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Yes the popular ammunition I mentioned is a “problem” and were manufactured to not over penetrate, and they do objectively more often than not, especially when it has to first pass through barrier. G2 Research Civic Duty, Liberty Civil defense, and G2 RIP does not.

Someone above wrote that they use what Law Enforcement does. So do I fragmentation and all. Note: Liberty Civil Defense (my carry ammo) does actually what RIP does: Liberty Ammunition Receives Perfect Score on NTOA Test - Weapons - POLICE Magazine

If it’s good enough for the National Tactical Officers Association, it’s good enough for me for all the reasons they’ve mentioned.

I will never tell a person what to purchase, but if they consciously purchase ammo for self-defense known in the industry to over-penetrating (becoming a FMJ), might be that fine hair, uncovered with a fine toothed comb, to a convicting or the poor house. The argument against fragmenting ammo can be made against those who use bonded hollow points!

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The images below represent what Law enforcement officers (NTOA) apparently “approved” and are using (Liberty Civil Defense). This being the objective case, I don’t see the ballistic difference between the two what the NTOA are using and RIP; only in name and appearance!

Clothing-CIvil-Defense-2
Clothing-CIvil-Defense-21500×912 416 KB
Clothing-Civil-Defense
Clothing-Civil-Defense1500×996 502 KB
Clothing-G2-2
Clothing-G2-21500×996 417 KB
Clothing-G2-1
Clothing-G2-11500×996 432 KB

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I carry Federal HST as do my local police. I have also carried Speer Lawman which I carried at my last LEO job.

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Mostly Winchester & Hunter’s Shack Munitions. I still have a couple of boxes left of odds and ends from the last ammo shortage, however nothing sensational sounding unless Federal Premium, Fiocchi Shooting Dynamics or PMC Bronze qualifies.

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IMHO the real issue with ammo with”aggressive” names or even AR/AK style weapons is not the name or style, but the perception by the sheeple in the jury box. Remember when dealing with the loonies “logic” and “facts” aren’t near as important as way the items are perceived. Think about this a moment. If an armed individual breaks into your home tonite and you (1)fire a single 5.56 round from your AR 15 or (2) you fire a single .45 Colt round from your Winchester ‘73. In either case the bad guy is stopped. Which action has a better perception to a group of uninformed non gun folks? Do you want to be seen as John Wayne defending the homestead or John Rambo with his “machine gun”? As of today, you can still choose what you wish, but which is easiest to defend or justify? Not intending to bash anyone’s choice, but just want you to think before a situation develops…YMMV👍

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Just because they’re not gun people doesn’t necessarily mean they’re sheeple. I can see an argument being made that saying just because something is named a certain way (if it has nothing to do with performance) then there’s no reason to fear it more and if people do not understand that, then we have a problem.

Some people have never been exposed to guns and I really hope they ask questions so they learn.

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My point is that a lot of folks are instantly put off by “scary black guns”-there is no rational explanation for it, it’s just what they’ve been brainwashed by the media and the “news” to believe. Anyone with a brain knows a 30-06 or a 45/70 is a lot more “deadly” than a 5.56 or 7.62x39, but the media portrays. The latter as some kind of super powerful thing. If you need to use something for defense you’re already in for a hassle, why give the opposite side anything else to use against you? Different folks/ different perceptions, but something to consider.

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I think the Press and Democrat politicians are more put off by scary black evil guns than anyone else.
The fellow who ended the church shooting in Texas awhile back used an AR.

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