Absolute or combat effective accuracy?

For background. I work in the print industry. I wear corrective lenses to ensure that what I am printing is indeed accurate and precise. My vision is excellent until I need to focus on the FRONT SIGHT quickly. I have even had my prescription changed in the attempt at trying to alleviate this problem to no avail. I am now using the same prescription that works in all but this instance for the last 20+ years after significant cost to correct the front sight issue.

As a result I realize that absolute accuracy for me at least will not happen. After accepting that fact my focus since has been muscle memory for the most part and quite extensive repetition of the draw stroke and aiming to achieve combat effective accuracy (8 inch group at 10 yards). My standard. Some would call it point shooting, which it is not as the angle of and level of the gun are in focus but the sights are not clearly defined. My goal is always a combat accurate first shot within 2 seconds from the holster. Surprisingly I have also become quite proficient after much practice at effectiveness on a silhouette from two handed retention fire as well as one handed fire from clearing the holster at 5 yards.

No doubt there is nothing more accurate than sighted fire. For those of us with visual limitations wanting to defend ourselves as well as others though I have found there is another method.

Thoughts?

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I too wear glasses. They were bifocals until I got progressive lenses this last time out. I have found that there are now 3 focal zones making it impossible for me to focus on the rear, front, and target simultaneously
I have found that which sights I choose matters most. For me the best sights I have used are Advantage Tactical pyrimids .They are very fast for combat alignment but will also help in target shooting. Unfortunately they do not make them for CZ’s.

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I’ve struggled with the “definition” of accuracy. Absolute accuracy being a tack driver, combat accuracy being what’s acceptable by military(veterans) standards and what I consider leave me alone accuracy.

Combat Accuracy sounds great and I have nothing negative to say about it however it’s for combat not self defense, leave me alone accuracy needs to be between tack driver and combat level accuracy.

In a self defense situation you will more than likely being shootimg with innocent people in or around the area and you must be aware of that. I do not feel you need to be a teir 1 operator, however you do need more discipline than a spray and pray method.

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In a combat situation you don’t need effective accuracy. Point and shoot without worrying about the sights. The majority of the time these encounters are up close and personal so sight focus is out of the picture. I say if you get hits on target don’t worry about a grouping or where they hit as long as you hit the target. Hope this helps.

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I have been point shooting for probably the better part of 20 years and during most of that time I was able to, when desired, pick up my front sight for “accuracy work” Over the past several years my arms have gotten too short to be able to see the front sight. The technical term is called “Presbyopia” it roughly means that the lens inside your eye has become hard and the muscles attached to it can no longer “flex” it allowing you to accomidate for differing distances. This getting older stuff ain’t for sissies.

While my standard point shooting technique remains solid the times that I wanted to shoot for groups by using the front sight have become increasingly difficult. I wear Tri-Focals for everyday use the top half have virtually no correction and I still see 20/15 at distance with or without them. My first trip to the range with them I learned that tilting my head back was completely out of character and uncomfortable. To that end I went to the drug store and stood at the “readers” display, held one arm out until I could just touch the display and started trying on readers. I ended up at 1.75 where I could read the smallest lettering on the display clearly. With a new pair of readers in hand I hit the range and low and behold I could see the sights again but the target was blurry. That of course is how it’s supposed to work.

Respectable groups were attained which verified the gun and the new load were working right. Off came the glasses and I went back to point shooting at normal draw speed. The groups were about 2X larger or less than the “aimed group”. Which roughly translates to “minute of coffee can lid” at 15 paces. I shoot steel so getting much closer is not an option unless I want to be pulling bits of copper and lead out of my hands and arms when finished.

The above is what works for me and pistol, I find the Tr-Focal’s work well for rifle scopes in that I can now read the knobs by tilting my head back or to the side. For shooting Iron sights either the 1.75 readers or 1.25 readers (depending on barrel length) work well. So don’t get rid of all your readers that you have acquired as they can come in handy on the range.

Cheers,

Craig6

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I like the new words and will use them…“leave me alone accuracy” “spray and pray” Thank you for that analogy!

I like the tack driver approach, and love the accuracy when I train. However moving, shooting, bringing my heart rate up, the “huff and puff” technique, then my accuracy declines. In a high adrenaline situation, given real life and death, even though we had had this training, am not sure what my accuracy will be. However with training, dry fire, etc., our odds are better.

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Gosh darn Craig, master of the masters division! You should write a book! I had to look up presbyopia! You stated at one point you worked on eyeballs.

I wear contacts so that I have one eye corrected for distance and one eye for reading.If the print is small I have to find cheaters. I have learned to shoot with both eyes, left handed. Either eye on front sight. Focus on front sight. Hard to explain. Long range i put in high power contacts. I haven’t moved to tri focals as of yet. Old age? I am 64 and still think I am 40ish.

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I’m 22 with 30 years of experience! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

Yes I worked in the eyeball industry, mainly retina, but I can dial you in for glasses and such too. I never could make the one eye long and other eye short thing work for my head. Massive headache inside an hour that took two hours to resolve. I even tried popping a lens out of readers, I kept walking into stuff.

Cheers,

Craig6

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My thoughts,

From typical ranges of self defense shooting, one shouldn’t need “pin point accuracy”. You need to aim, shoot, and be on target (the bad guy, not the circle in the middle).

Training for pinpoint accuracy is a good idea. Better shooting practice = better shooting in a life death situation.

This is why I don’t think people new to carry need to be commandos. They primarily need to be able to safely operate, safely store the fire arm, and know what situations are appropriate for firearm use. Most people can hit a target 3-5 yards out quickly, easy, and on target. I don’t want people to think this mentality is the right way to think… but it really is as simple as point and shoot at those ranges. We can make it as complicated as we want, but it really is that simple (I am not suggesting people should not train to be proficient. I’m merely saying that your average Joe, who receives basic professional training and familiarizes himself with his guns probably has the skill set and knowledge to defend himself, again, I’m not saying this should be ones goal, I’m just setting a baseline for what I believe is practical, safe and reasonable. It’s always better to be training and improving.)

When I go to the range I typically have two training modes. I have draw and shoot rapidly to ensure that I can quickly put shots on the general target. If my shots are on the silhouette I’m happy (I have started using smaller silhouettes because they’re cheap, but I realize now that I’m holding myself to a higher standard than your typical test target). The other training is slow single fire shots. These I do care greatly about groups.

I am not an expert in any way, just sharing my thoughts.

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I’m old, but not that old yet :stuck_out_tongue:

How about a red dot on the pistol?

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While I haven’t tried a red dot on a pistol, I feel it would be ungainly or awkward for carry. I have been thinking about a laser for sometime however. Our nightstand gun has a Crimson Trace Railmaster that is very small and quick on target. Considering another for my carry.

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Aim for center mass. Nobody is pulling a ruler and seeing what your grouping is like after a self defense incident. You are liable to empty the mag into the bad guy anyways and if the bad guy isn’t dead after being hit 7 times then you got bigger problems than accurate shooting.

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Most self defense shootings is done at 7 yards. That’s according to FBI stats. So practice stress shooting and don’t be too worried about being pin point. Your heart will be pounding and you will have tunnel vision. So, if you can, do some jumping jacks and /or take a quick jog and then try shooting. that’s what I did and its helped a lot.

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I use workout sandbags and do some HIIT workouts to get the heart rate up and fatigue muscles, then try for pin point accuracy. Try being the key word, I don’t worry about the accuracy as much as I do overcoming the heart rate and muscle fatigue. More or less I’m attempting to prepare to control the adrenaline when it hits and use it as a tool instead of being overcome by it.

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I’m 65 and I wear bifocals. I have no problem getting on the front sight…BUT…when you consider most firearm encounters are going to require you to get rounds off quickly, you will not be looking for sights! You will be point shooting from “jump street”.

The adrenaline , stress, and whatever else are reasons when you see people in shooting situations they often have no clue how many rounds they shot and can’t really give account of the details accurately, until they “come down”.

I think you’re fine! Always practice and train…because should a shooting situation arise you’re going to revert to training. I also will say you will be surprised how much better your vision gets under stress because of where your focus is…and should you see your front sight…it’ll most likely look larger and clearer than ever. I’m sure there are some here that can attest to that.

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I love when I am at the range and watch the guys(yes us guys, yet to see a lady do this) and go through a walk to the plate routine before, in between and after every shot. I just kinda watch, it’s not like these guys are shooting bullseye. Just really bad habits. If your pistol fits properly, it will be an extension of your hand , as though you are pointing. So combat accuracy all day long … they don’t teach bullseye shooting at gunsite in combat classes.

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I, too, have toric contact lenses, with one focusing near and the other focusing distant. For the first 30 days, I stumbled around like a drunken sailor, but eventually (despite being a bear of very little brain) I adjusted. I now shoot with both eyes open, and both the sights AND the target are in focus. Wonderful!

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Joe. I have to try. New gun owner and been three times to the range. I have left eye for distance and it has a toric lens. Right eye for up close and it has a multi focal lens. This past week they told me they are trying me for multi focal toric lenses. Free trial pair. If I like them it is $150 a box for 6, or twice wait I pay usually. I’m keeping an open eye so to speak. Right now I have used the Turn the head technique that I learned from the warrior poet society that I found in a previous thread

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I’ve been carrying a red dot on my full size M&P core for 6 years now I guess once the training curve and muscle memory is done I shoot much much more accurate and faster with the Red Dot than standard 3 Dot sights not uncomfortable at all to carry don’t even feel a difference if you can find a buddy or when you’re at the range ask somebody to use it it’ll might feel a little unnatural at first you will get the hang of it and being able to shoot both eyes open and not losing half of my awareness of my surroundings bonus

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The only thing I’m finding upsetting about the whole red dot thing is, I need new holsters and it’s just - sad. I really love the rigs I finally got right.

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