ABC's of gun ownership

I appreciate your input, Nathan57, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one. ANY ammo selection, if circumstances for its use are thought through and reasoned, can fulfill the need of effective self-defense. In your answer you made my point because shot placement is always critical to success at stopping the threat while, depending upon circumstance, penetration can be over-achieved, thus presenting a liability problem.

In the example I cited, the store owner was doing the best he could to protect his life and livelihood without destroying it through unnecessary liability. He reasoned most perpetrators bent on robbing him would not be expecting an armed response and the shock of being hit at close range, while not knowing it was shot (and expecting a bullet), would flee in survival mode. Rod, the store owner, may have backed up the first two rounds with 158 gr. lead as a stopper . . . I don’t remember that long ago.

There had been perceived threats from “customers” with no apparent purpose for being in his store and HE felt more secure in those close quarters with that load. Fortunately, he was never called to PROVE the worth of his idea, but he also spoke of aiming for “skin”.


That’s why I have my red rider rifle at ready always and it is tuned up that thin will make ya so mad ya can’t see straight I know no joke and every one thinks it’s a toy WORNG

Training is only required for a carry license, but Florida no longer requires a license to carry concealed.

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I don’t disagree at all, if your goal in carrying a gun is to scare the attacker into a psychological stop, you don’t need something that penetrates enough to reliably initiate a physiological stop. Blanks may even work or an empty gun maybe even

Just don’t confuse the two, those cci snake shot pistol cartridges are objectively poor at physiologically stopping an attacker, as is anything else wirh so little penetration

They should not be relied on to stop a determined attacker.


Not to belabor the point, Nathan57, but I clearly defined the limits of performance as well as how the store owner whom I know was deploying them was using them . . . and what he expected of them. He was seeking a balance between protection and liability as he believed a responsibly armed person should.

I can see you envision them being fired center mass and, clothing, ribs and connective tissue considered, I agree with your perception and understanding of a lack of penetration and stopping power. HIS close range objective was the face and neck (exposed skin). I am sure you can imagine the effect of being shot in the face and/or the muscular and vascular damage that would occur by being shot in the neck . . . especially if you hit the carotid arteries. A perp would bleed out in 2 minutes or less, and certainly before he could get to the hospital which, after being shot, would be his new primary objective!

I have carried concealed for over 55 years and I was not claiming that the shot shells were MY defensive round of choice - only that under carefully considered circumstances they could constitute a good or effective choice. Other than in the beginning when I carried a snub nosed .38 Special with 158 gr. lead round nose (that, semi-wadcutters and wad cutters were all that was available), I have always carried pistols in .40 S&W loaded at various times with everything from Black Talons given me by a local PD Detective who was banned from carrying that load, to Hornady Critical Defense or DRT (Dynamic Research Technologies) 105 gr. compressed metal. I do so because I share your concept of stopping the threat as effectively, quickly as possible and I want to be prepared for that “determined attacker”.

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been a while since i posted here,but I agree with you and carry all the time and dont go any where there is a detecter i practice what i call the what if scenario and when in bed my weapon is either on the bed side table or under my pillow,and i am always legal with the states permission and i do pay for assistence here also which i have used once and USCCA came through for the one confrontation that i had up in Wa.State,I also continiously practice at home and range and when home relaxing i apactice with laser snap caps and laser targets,and I also practice drawing and doing double taps, I also do time draws and can draw and double tap in 1.5 seconds,and I do beleive in practice,if you dont practice,you lose it,and to stay healthy you have to practice regular, I am not bragging in any way,just saying how i train,because no matter where you are at bad things con happen,another thing to do is in a confrontation,watch the eyes,that will telegraph what they are going to do! Also be aware of your surounding and use your pherphical vision as you walk amd store windows and dont walk close to the cornor of a building ,walk on the street side of the side walk


(4) How Lethal Is Rat Shot ??? :rat: - YouTube

#9 ratshot just doesnt have enough mass. the #4 ratshot was a fair bit more impressive, the 50 bmg ratshot is insane


Great video!! Thank you for sharing!


Your friend should carry what he’s comfortable with. While I may or may not agree with his conclusion, he has a rationale for what he’s doing. That rationale makes sense to me even if I do or do not agree with it.

One other thought: personally, I wouldn’t carry a round that required me to rely on a head or neck shot.


Thank you for your reasoned response and, under most circumstances, I would agree with your concluding sentence. What I failed to describe was the confined size of his entry/customer service area with the largest area reserved for working behind the counter. From the front entry door and windows to the counter was no more than 15’, including the depth of shelving and stand-alone racks on the front wall or floor for displaying sale merchandise, a line of shoes, belts and buckles, leather care accessories, etc. So any potential threat was very restricted in his/her ability to move back, forth and laterally.

I didn’t include that information in my original and follow-up arguments because the scene in total made sense to me. Although his particular usage and circumstances were almost designed for that round, until this back-and-forth response to opposing viewpoints came into being I didn’t realize how confined TO those circumstances that usage was.

In saying that, it was not my intention to contribute to anyone’s misapplication or incorrect reliance on the effectiveness of those rounds under more universal circumstances. I guess I hadn’t anticipated the level of opposition response I received but I am grateful for the eye-opening discussion it caused.

The video offered by RangeMatt above is very informative and, to a degree, reinforces my belief that in these or similar limited circumstances (and depending on caliber), short range concentrations of such small shot fired into bare skin can cause massive tissue and vascular damage to that or lightly protected areas of the body, disabling an attacker or at the very least, changing his/her mind AND making them easy to track! LOL!


I think differing opinions are healthy. I’m glad your friend carries!

Again, I can see his rationale. And I’ll add that many people don’t think things through as much as your friend has. :grin: