I was just at a local pub having the usual bar food and a couple beers with my wife around 6:30. I was not carrying. Cannot carry and drink in Wisconsin (and most states, I assume).
It’s a small place. There were maybe four couples in booths. A couple at the bar, the owner manning the grill, and his daughter serving food and drinks. There was one other guy at the bar, getting loud and obviously drunk. After he was given his bill, he started bitching that his bill was over $20. It got loud and he made threats (which I did not hear clearly). He then went into the rest room by himself and shut the door. I wondered if he went in there to get his gun ready/racked or a knife but he appeared to have nothing on him. But who knows?
The owner then yelled that he wanted him out of the bar and that he was calling the police. At that point the guy rushed out of the rest room and charged towards the owner of the bar. They were swinging at each other in the hallway and his daughter then got involved trying to pull the guy off her dad. A few blows were landed. Another guy and I ran in to assist at that point when the whole mess fell outside through the door. The offender ran off.
Note that owner did not actually call the police. I am not sure why.
I’m asking myself what I would have done if I was carrying. I certainly would not have shot, but when would I have pulled my gun and told the guy to back off? Or should I wait till the owner of the bar is knocked out or on the ground?
As far as the owner not calling LE, we are in the hospitality industry and the more calls you have like this to LE the higher the risk you become of getting classified as a “Nuisance Business.”
In Indiana you can drink and carry. In your situation, even if I had a gun on me, it would have never came out. I agree with @Fizbin about spray or even stun gun. The way you described it, I didn’t see any reason to ever think about pulling a gun. Well, unless he came out of the bathroom with a knife or a gun and then I could see pulling a gun. Otherwise I think you did good trying to help out.
Thanks @Justin47 . When the owner’s 20-something daughter was in the hallway trying to get the nut-job off her dad, I could not longer just sit there. Agree on the pepper spray option by @Fizbin.
I work at a bar, I am the chef there. We have occasional mishaps but with the people that regular the place and the bartenders we pretty much keep things pretty calm there. As for what happened there, ya’all did pretty much what needed to be done. A good communicator should have talked him down and kept thing cool calm and collect but sometimes it just can not be done. This is were de-escalating a situation skills come into play. Can you de-escalate a bad situation to have a good outcome?
In Tennessee, if you are carrying and are observed to have even have a sip of alcohol in a bar and a Police Officer sees that, you will probably lose your concealed carry permit for a period of three years (of course, it depends on a variety of factors such as if the LEO even KNOWS that you are carrying, etc). IMO, this was a situation for Law Enforcement to be involved…and I would NOT have just watched, I also would have gotten involved to help stop the violence that happened.
Draw my weapon? Absolutely NOT. Would I have used my martial arts training to stop the situation and subdue the drunk patron after the aggressor took action? YES! Used pepper spray? Maybe, but probably not. “Cool” heads potentially kept this situation from becoming worse than what it was.
Good call on the MA, but I don’t know any other than the good 'ole fashion American fist fight. And at my age I’m not getting close to that pile of whirling dervishes. So as Clint Eastwood said, “A man has got to know his limitations”. This being said, OC spray for me.
I perfectly gotcha on your thinking…I’m not as young and agile as I used to be LOL. Being that I’m getting older and can’t always count on my MA training reflexes (or potentially take care of a situation which involves firearms that the bad guy has if I didn’t have mine) is another reason after these many years that I finally decided it was MY time to be legal to carry, and I carry often. I pray I never have to draw or use deadly force, but I am more than able to do so.
If the bad guys would simply do a good ole fashioned fist fight, it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been in that way.
One question on the spray…if they were all in a hallway and close together would that have made the situation worse? The patron was drunk and we all know you don’t feel things the same way when you are drunk. The bartender and his daughter would probably have been incalacitated if close to the attacker but not necessarily the patron. Now he is going to be even more unruly. He could use the opportunity to take out the bar owner or turn his attention 100% to you.
Btw…much easier being the arm chair quarterback. The only thing I know for sure is I would have stepped in as well if I thought I could safely subdue the patron.
Yeah pepper spray is a no go in that situation. Back in the day when I went to bars, folks all knew each other for the most part, the barkeep had a bat to keep piece. If you had a fellow in your group who was wound up you took care of your own. Not the same nowadays…
#1, can’t drink and carry in NC. But assuming I was sipping on a water and properly-armed:
100% not my fight. I drop $40 on the table to cover the cost of my meal and get my wife out of harm’s way as quickly as possible. Once safe in my car, I call 911 and let LEO’s do what they are qualified to do.
As an NC CC permit holder, I am allowed to defend myself if my life is in danger. It won’t end well for me if I brandish in an attempt to scare Drunk Man. It will end even worse if I shoot DM. I’m staying in my lane bro …
Yes, it was not my fight. But when I saw the owner’s daughter take a punch the “not my fight” option died pretty fast. The main concern was when the offender suddenly ran into the bathroom and came charging out a few seconds later.
No, it’s important to stop the threat and when someone is beating men and women up. I’ve had to deploy OC in the past during 3rd party physical altercations and it’s pretty much like a “time out card”. I’m not sure what could be worse other than edged weapon or a firearm.
An aggressive fist fight or grapple, many times among adults does NOT end in just a few cuts and bruises like on TV. There is a high risk of severe injury or death.
In my experience, bouncer , private security, security officer, combat infantry man, martial artist, pepper spray in confined space causes panic as the other patrons start to catch vapors. The intended person is affected but the two victims are as well. Now we know the rules to this are as such if they engage you directly after a verbal it’s soft hands then with the help of the other patrons should you try to usher the individual out , if your directly involved if you are a bystander call the cops from a safe location. Ex filtrate as best you can you want to be as inconspicuous as possible when carrying. And drinking is a go preceded by a No! It’s not in my purview to drink alcohol when armed even one drink can lead to a liability as soon as the boom stick comes out . Ask your self am I in immediate danger? Do I have a clear sight picture what’s behind these individuals? And the most costly mistake who are they here with ? You go to deploy what ever spray you got and boom your hit with a chair , bottle , stabbed or who knows what. Your job is to preserve your life first then Your loved ones the cops restore order and peace we are just armed citizens with the duty to protect ourselves leave the hero stuff to firefighters they deserve that mantle
Gotcha @Owen2, I very well may agree with you in a scenario of a bar room brawl, for sure! but the OP didn’t describe the incident as such.
I know I’d never be in this position personally as I quit drinking in 1997 and haven’t been in a bar in over 23 years now, but I have students who may ask me the same question. I really think I’m standing by my original answer, as based on the scenario, I thought it through with great detail.
Your scenario, good googly moogly, agreed, I’m running for the door!
Bar owners are frequently hesitant to call police when a drunk misbehaves. In many states, the fact that he is drunk is their responsibility over serving him.
Running for the door , really?
And Owen , all that experience and your gonna bow out of protecting ones who could clearly use your skill sets to easily solve the problem . Or have said skills deteriorated and you’re now just the beta bystander type? I don’t understand your thought process with such a background ?
but the OP didn’t describe the incident as such.