Among the most frightening of all natural disasters are pandemics. A pandemic is an outbreak of disease among large portions of a population in a country or worldwide. COVID-19 is by no means the first pandemic the U.S. has experienced in its history. Pandemics and epidemics have devastated the country for more than 200 years.
I have worked with people who went through the Polio outbreak and I remember the start of the AIDS pandemic. The amount of fear at the start of the AIDS pandemic was palpable, but very different from what weāre going through now.
What stands out to me is the fact that MSM, CNN, MSNBC, and other left leaning news outlets have been reporting stories that they havenāt FACT CHECKED before they report them. And that they report them as true even though it turns out not to be. And also that they ALL seem to BLAME PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR IT ALL. Even though he had nothing to do with the COVID-19 CRISIS. And all started when CHINA PUT OUT FALSE REPORTS TO COVER UP THE REAL FACTS. And the W.H.O. also pushed the FALSE CHINA REPORTS AND DATA. And in the AIDS PANDEMIC there wasnāt anything like all of this BLAMING OF ANYONE. But since President Trump was elected the Left have been trying to DISCREDIT HIM AND OUST HIM FROM OFFICE BUY ANY AND ALL MEANS THEY CAN COME UP WITH. And this has I believe never happened in American history.
The two week incubation period. The fact that we could have this disease for two weeks without having a clue, is what makes this virus so scary. The illness itself is not particularly intimidating. From what Iāve read, it varies a lot in severity. Some have what seems like an average cold, and others are hospitalized and dying. BUT the amount of people who could get infected at one time could be catastrophic. If we had not Locked down, we would have many many more deaths (Are numbers are not exactly low with quarantine).
Iāve heard the argument āweāve never locked down beforeā but we are more educated than past pandemics AND this is more contagious than the flu.
Lol just to say reloaded u sound like trumps #1 supporter makes sence when u use buy for by āand oust him by any and all meansā not buy any and all means scoutbob you are a well informed individual. Dont forget best way to prevent this is to wash your hands and if you are sick dont. Be a douche and I teract with people. WE are the problem not CHINA not trump (even though I cant stand him) its us as people from everywhere
@Kurtis, welcome to the Community. We welcome all viewpoints here, as long as theyāre expressed respectfully. Please remember, typos happen, and making assumptions or generalizations about someone based on a typo doesnāt help the conversation.
I agree, if youāre sick, stay home. No matter what, extra handwashing and other precautionary measures are important right now.
In my lifetime and my entire living families lifetime we have not seen anything like this. It is ashame that we all canāt be on the same page when it comes to the virus. It has been made political by both sides over and over, when the true goal should be the safety of the people. The only real fix to this would have been to lock down everything for 30 days, getting everyone 30 days of food and water, and then keeping our borders shut until the rest of the world caught up. Unfortunately we needed our hospitals and many other services to stay partially open, while people used it for grandstanding and making political statements, which I am sure past pandemics didnāt have to endure to this extent. On the flip side this was a very good article, I have not seen the Pandemics laid out like this and I definitely learned about a few I heard of but never knew when they happened.
And the data coming in, does not support or justify what has been done to the nation.
The states, such as New York that pushed Covid19 into nursing homes where those who are more at risk should be held accountable. Over 60% of the deaths per some reports show they were in nursing homesā¦ and not the general public.
I know, you do not like any reports that do not agree with your predisposed view.
@Dawn, sorry. I could not refrain from returning at least for a moment.
There are reports and data that are coming in now, that show the Covid19 virus has been in the US since at least January, and some reports that as early as November.
There are reports that far more people have been infected, and the fatalities has been inflated by counting any and all deaths as Covid19 deaths if there was a positive test result, no matter the actual cause of death.
Those facts alone mean the mortality rate is far lower than the politicized reports are claiming.
There are also facts from Denmark and Sweden and our own states that did not try to collapse the nation and economy that show the tyrannical acts were not needed and we could have kept our Republic.
There are also reports that states like New York, made rules requiring nursing homes to take Covid19 patients ( supposedly to help protect hospital beds that in many cases were never filled upā¦ and even the Mayo Clinic is laying off thousands of healthcare workers)ā¦. and the nursing homes are places those at higher risk are. Some of those reports state 60% or more of the deaths are in nursing homes.
So, while the US should have closed itās borders, to keep out foreign travelers who might have been sick, we should not have allowed to destruction of the Rule of Law and the Constitution, the tyrannical acts that have curtailed our liberty, freedom and rights.
How many are suffering, due to loss of job, loss of the means to provide food for their family, the loss of businesses that may never reopen.
There is a way to exercise the police powers of a state, and that is within the Constitution and Rule of Law, and that is not what we have seen.
We are also seeing sources such as youtube silence those that disagree with WHO, such as front line doctors, those who have been on treating patients, those who state the hospitals and other medical facilities are furloughing healthcare workers, and some of that is in line with the politics of the left, and someā¦
In line with Europe and the control Germany is pushing.
Please donāt apologize for your comment to Roger, @Kevin29! Your comment is very well written and we welcome all viewpoints as long as theyāe expressed respectfully. You make very interesting points worth discussing. 
@Kevin29, why would you say
āI know, you do not like any reports that do not agree with your predisposed view.ā That has nothing to do with your argument. Statements like that really irk me, and they donāt help your case. Are trying to rile me up? In the other topic, you also made statements like āAnswer these two questions and words matterā. Statements like this are not fair to me, and they do not add to the discussion.
I apologize if I came across aggressive in the other post. Iām a reasonable person. I have a newborn baby in my house. He is my first Child. Itās a very scary thing to me right now, especially with everything going on.
I truly believe Corona is extremely contagious. To be blunt, I think youāre looking at the data wrong. (If quarantine works, everyone will say we over reacted). I am very torn on quarantine. I donāt like being told what to do by the government. That being said, I know if the government did not get involved, many people would be forced to work during a potentially lethal pandemic. Thatās not fair either. I personally think, if this were to happen in the future, there should be some changes to the plan. But this situation is bad no matter what choices are made.
There are always reports to suggest the opposite of what we have been told. In 1998 a doctor claimed autism was caused by the MMR vaccine later discredited . Dr.Curry released a report stating 5g was killing people later discredited(by his own admission he didnāt understand how radiation works) and now we have reports stating 5g is passing on Covid-19. What I have a hard time believing is that our Government wants to pay people extra money, ruin the economy, and cause many business to fail during a major election year all for the simple purpose of controlling people. Without people working and tax money coming in the Government will eventually be unable to support itself or its programs. The response to the virus right or wrong is almost the same result they took in 1918 where millions died during the second wave because people didnāt believe it was as bad due to low number of the first wave. They didnāt have the means to pass on information at the rate that we do today. When the numbers started dropping they believed like many due now, that it was over. Not every area is going to be hit at the same rate. There are areas that were shut down prior to the spread getting bad in that area, which saved it from the higher numbers of higher travel areas. Numbers from Major cities will be much higher than small cities where people donāt travel in and out of at a high rate. Itās easy to believe that itās not as bad when measures have been taken to keep people safe. Just like cancer or any other killing disease, when people die from the side effect of the disease and it is labeled as death by the disease. For example a person heart fails because it was weakened by covid it will likely be listed as heart failure due to covid. Keep in mind a Government that uses Medicare and Medicaid to pay much less than insurance does for the same issue is now paying for Covid19. So Hospitals would make a lot more money if they could label the cause of death as something other than covid19. Those not tested are not able to be labeled as covid19 deaths so the numbers are actually lower than being reported. Not even the Government can convince every hospital to go along with an agenda. The many hospital layoffs have been due to many hospitals losing money and not needing 20 surgeons in the emergency rooms because they are not doing elective surgeries or 50 nurses on one floor because they are no longer working in areas shut down. Hospitals are not going to voluntarily shut down money making areas for fake reports and put themselves in financial crisis on a whim. Look at how many people who have been refused treatment in the past due to lack insurance and or hospital funding and now they are not refusing any patient regardless of insurance for covid19 where the Government is picking up the bill and only paying a set price regardless of the actual cost. Theories are nice and when this is over there will be plenty of blame going around. We will be able to look back and judge everyone for their responses and ignore what they did right. Governments around the world are killing themselves by staying closed, opening up is the only way they survive and stay in power. The world leaders didnāt get together and decide to destroy the world economy as a way to control you, for the sole purpose of saying look what we can do.
I say you do not like any reports that do not agree with your predisposed view, because past experience, and this;
Perhaps you did become overly aggressive in the other topic, perhaps not. If so, perhaps we both dug in our heels and reacted poorly.
I never said the Covid19 is not contagious, nor that it is not something to worry about. I look at many sources, including sources from Europe and Britain, and those, plus current data from the US, shows a serious problem particularly the 60% plus deaths from nursing homes, and New York issuing rules requiring nursing homes to take Covid19 patients. That does not alter the fact the mortality rate is not as high as they claim or made it sound it would be with the fear mongering, but I think some of that was political. Birx herself said they will count all deaths as Covid deaths, if the test is positive, regardless of actual cause of death.
I can understand having a new child, and people become a little more panicky and concerned with the first child, and there is nothing wrong with that, as it is new and a learning process. Each parent is different even in normal times, so adding in a virus can do much to keep you on edge. That being said, I would consider it a simple matter of choice. Those who are at risk or concerned may choose to stay home or avoid contact as much as possible, but others can continue to live.
I point these out, and guess I took your comment here and in another topic to be more in line with anything that helpsā¦ such as the left always saysā¦ āif it saves one lifeā (all while ignoring the deaths of abortion that they also support). I have a concern, that once precedent is set, once we the people allow government to issue zip code wide quarantines and lock away people without due process. even if it is in their own homes, arrest those who try to freely travel, go to the beach (and remember, there are reports that state the virus is killed in the sun), punishing people for their rights, and those who want to operate their businessā¦and the total ignoring of the Rule of Law and the Constitution, to curtail rights, in a tyrannical totalitarian manner, we might open the door to government declaring an emergency to shut us down during a flu season (we have had upwards of 60K deaths this season alone and states like Virginia with Governor āBlackfaceā Northam who is acting as a tyrant and subverting the Constitution where there were 800 flu deaths this season, and so far only 544 Covid19 deaths), it seems we have not panicked over the flu (which is deadly to someā¦ and what do we say to those families who lost loved ones to the flu, sorry, but it was not Covid19?) Sorry if that sounds flippantā¦
Can you see the government, once they taste power they were never to have, holding that power, declaring emergenciesā¦ and suspending the Constitution? I can.
They have done it before, using emergencies, and we never did get all of the power back from them.
There is nothing so permanent as a Temporary government program - Milton Friedman
Perhaps being older, I have seen things that are concerning, and seen things like pandemics that government should not get involved in, except perhaps to close the borders to reduce the potential number of infected from entering the nation.
I worked in the Intelligence Community many years ago, swore to defend the Constitution, and believe in our founding principles. That may make me a little more hard edged and I do apologize if my comment comes across that way, as it is intended to provide other views and something to consider, not to totally change your mind, but to look at other sources and combine the information (as I also believe none are providing all the information and we must consider parts from many sources and somewhere in there is information that might be useful.
The left, in itās desire for power, already wants Universal Basic Income, so this is simply an expedientā¦ ānever let a crisis go to wasteā.
The government, including Trump (and I like Trump, but he still believes in spending far too much)ā¦ thinks they can borrow money forever, and that China and others will always want dollar denominated investments (Treasuries)ā¦.
They also think since we are a fiat currency, they can print what they need.
That did not do well for Rome (who debased their currency), for Weimar Republic, or Zimbabwe.
Not actually.
There is a difference between dying from something and dying with something. I have seen interviews with doctors and scientists that state it is not normal to count something like Covid19 or the flu, as a cause of death, unless it was clearly the cause of death.
CDC issued a statement on 24 March;
Should āCOVID-19ā be reported on the death certificate only with a confirmed test? COVID-19 should be reported on the death certificate for all decedents where the disease caused or is assumed to have caused or contributed to death. Certifiers should include as much detail as possible based on their knowledge of the case, medical records, laboratory testing, etc. If the decedent had other chronic conditions such as COPD or asthma that may have also contributed, these conditions can be reported in Part II. (See attached Guidance for Certifying COVID-19 Deaths)
Notice, it says SHOULD be reported as Covid 19, even if it is only assumedā¦ and chronic existing conditions CAN BE (but not SHOULD be or MUST be) reported in Part II.
I see Cloward and Piven and Alinskyā¦ the leftā¦ as willing to burn down the system to get what they want.
Italy has a close connection to Wuhan, they have Chinese workers from Wuhan in Northern Italy working in the name brand fashion industryā¦ and Italy has a socialized healthcare system, could be they suffered much at first due to extenuating circumstances, but they have seen improvement. Denmark is showing improvement, and Sweden is still working and did not burn their nation to the ground, just as South Dakota did not do the shut down burn the state to the ground.
There are also front line doctors, who say it is not as bad as it was made out to be. Dr. Erickson said he talked to emergency room doctors who said they are being āpressuredā to add the ācoronavirusā as the cause of death.
You can consider the information and compile the data, including your current accepted view and data, combining it to come to a conclusion, perhaps the same, perhaps different.
The main issue is, if we allow and accept government suspending the Constitution for a virus, we set a precedent, and the next flu with 60K-80K deaths such as the 2017-18 and the 2019-20 flu seasons, we might find government acting tyrannically again.
I just want to say, if I say āI think your looking at the data wrongā that doesnāt mean Iām closed minded. It means, in my opinion, you are looking at the data wrong. Im going to use NY as an example. There are about 8.3 million people in NY. There have been over 18,000 confirmed COVID Deaths, and about 300,000 confirmed cases. Notice the word āconfirmedā it could be more than that. Many people who where not considered in danger where not confirmed, and where sent to self quarantine. You can look at this data and say ONlY 18,000 people died, thatās not good, but itās not a huge percentage. You can look at that data and say ā18000 people died, thatās 18,000 individual lives that mattered. I donāt want my family to be a part of the 18,000ā you can look at the data say they are over estimating this all of this and itās all a lie. Or you can look at the data and say this is much worse and the government is actually masking the problem. I am not closed off to view points. In fact, my viewpoints have changed on this. I was originally opposed to opening the economy, now I think a gradual opening is a prudent idea. I donāt think certain businesses should have been labeled ānon essentialā had to close, but I do think they should have had to lower capacity of people in their facilities.
I am torn because I donāt want the government to regulate this. BUT Americans donāt listen. Not every company would have closed by choice and people would have lost their jobs over carona. Not every person would stay home when theyāre sick. Most people donāt have 2 weeks of extra sick leave, and they would take a couple days off and then come to work sick putting those at risk. This is an argument I donāt usually make. I am against the soda size laws that where passed in New York. I donāt think cities should tell bars they canāt allow smoking. BUT I can choose what size soda I want. I can choose to not go to a bar that allows smoking. Corona does not allow the idea of choice. I canāt choose weather my water has carona and gets me sick. I canāt choose if I interact and get sick with someone at work.
I took debate when I was younger. I appreciate your well thought out arguments. You seem passionate about this due to your willingness to fight tooth an nail for your argument. I think, through conversations and forum like this, we can learn a lot. Iām not trying to be rude, but I really donāt care to go back and forth about this. It takes up time, I donāt see the conversation ending in a meaningful way, and I would rather devote my time to other things. I like the guns and gear section on here, because I just like guns and gear. Itās not political, itās more fun to me. I know you responded to my original response. I definitely started this conversation, but Iām finding out I donāt really want to dwell on the current circumstances. I use this forum more as a fun place to freely talk about something I canāt always freely talk about (guns and carry). Iād rather escape COVID drama here and there to talk about good holsters or firearms.
I will address this first.
It is freedom. If a business decides to remain open, it is the business ownerās right to remain open and operate their business. We have a right to our property and a property in our rights, we have a right to our faculties and can use them as we see fit. You are also free to either conduct business with that store, or to avoid it and remain home. You can keep your distance even if you enter the store.
I find it required to avoid people all year long, as someone will invariably get in your faceā¦ sneeze and cough, and they just got out of the hospital for the flu or pneumoniaā¦ and just had to go out in public. Do I think government should intervene and regulate that, control that? No.
As far as businesses reducing capacity, that is still your (the customer) decision, you can enter or not. If you think there are too many people inside, do not enter.
I err on the side of freedom and liberty, individual choice and personal responsibility.
You want to talk about guns and gear, but I must point out, that if we allow the precedent of government declaring an emergency and suspending rights, the guns and gear will not matter.
I did consider not returning , because I find far too many people here, far too willing to surrender rights, all for some government safety.
Have a good day.
thatās a very unique opinion
I would say not that unique, but, I am not sure which part you consider unique.
The view on the leftās desire to burn the system down?
The view of Italyās healthcare system?
The fiat currency and debasement of the currency?
The high fatalities of current and previous flu seasons?
The doctors that are saying it is not as dangerous?
or the Cloward-Piven strategy and Alinsky?
None of them are exactly unique, though I may be one of the few who consider all of them in the context of the times.
I am not one to ever think the left or right is all about control or burning anything down. I see individuals on both sides go to extremes but we have all seen the results.
I also donāt see the flu as being dangerous in most countries except to those with deadly unlining conditions or countries that donāt have decent healthcare. In reality 8k to 20k deaths a year from the flu in the U.S is nothing compared to the population. Donāt get me wrong those are real people and someoneās family member and it means a lot to them. That said, with over 300 million people in the U.S, it could be a whole lot worse.
Now is this unique? well it depends on how you want to look at it. If weāre talking throughout history no itās not unique at all. If weāre talking about in the last 100 years, then yeah itās unique in the fact that it hasnāt happened on this scale in a long time.
Now if you believe there is more going on here than just a virus, time will tell the whole story it always does. I would not panic over anything at this point. I choose to take precautions when I am out to protect others incase i have it and donāt know it, and for the most part many people do the same for me.
I think what is unique here is that so many people have come together to try and keep each other safe and to prevent the spread of the virus, we have never seen that with any other virus in my lifetime. My wife has an autoimmune disease and would be affected a lot worse than I would but just like the flu, I wouldnāt want to get it to find out.
We know very little about this virus and yet we also know quite a bit. I know getting the flu sucks, throwing up, burning up, the shits, and other issues. Even though most people only get minor symptoms with COVID, I donāt want to find out which ones I get from it. Do I live in fear no, do I think the media is trying to scare me by posting data, no. Do I think the Government is going to end our democracy and take all our guns away, no.
Data is what you make of it and has no opinion either way, they can lie about it being worse or not as bad and it makes no difference, in the end itās going to be what we do with the information. We will see years of people studying what went wrong, how the numbers got so far off or how they got this high, either way what we are living through now will be a really short period in our lifetimes. I barely remember what I did in 2001 other than the actual day of 9/11, I believe 2020 will be the same way in 10 years from now. I believe we will see a lot faster response times to world viruses and a lot more PPE being stored for a while. Pretty much everything that went wrong this time will be put under a microscope, Politicians and people from their parties will do everything to condemn every decision by the other party. Once it dies down people will take a serious look on what was needed and what needs to be fixed in future events.
Lets be real only people can spread it and only people can suffer with it, no politician can change that. Now the effect on the economy is going to be largely negative to say the least but as always we will pull out of it just like any other recession or even depression.
So unique, in some ways, in some ways we can see history repeating itself. What we shouldnāt see is the larger death totals of the past because we have the medical they didnāt have, we also have a greater number of doctors available to us. We also have the ability to stay away from people if we choose to. No other generation had the internet to get supplies from like we do. My life hasnāt changed hardly at all other than wearing a mask in the store and washing my hands more. I always kept away from people to begin with so social distancing is normal to me, I mean who really wants someone close to them while they are talking and spitting all over.
While you present some interesting views, I am still unclear as to the actual uniqueness.
Also, consider that my comment was not exclusively about any specific virus.