4th amendment conflict in TX LTC vs Constitutional Carry

When Texas passed the Constitutional Carry law they specifically removed a line that gave LEO the ability to demand ID just because there is a gun. In Texas, LEO can not demand ID unless you are legally arrested, not just suspicion of a crime (or driving infractions). The third allowance for LEO demanding ID is if you have LTC and are carrying, you MUST provide ID to LEO anytime they ask. Even if LEO does not even know about the gun, they just ask for ID for any reason or no reason, you have to give it up. So, someone with the extra background checks and proven ability must surrender their 4th amendment rights while someone unlicensed does not. I don’t agree that anyone should surrender ID unless suspected of a crime, but this seem especially bad.
I have reached out to state reps and even to TX Homeland Security committee at the suggestion of another rep, but I was wondering if there are any USCCA resources to light a fire under reps to get this cleaned up.

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I think USCCA is more involved in avoiding being in a self defense situation with a firearm and what to do and our rights if we are involved in a defense situation. Good luck with your quest.

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That is what I thought, but I was talking to a rep from USCCA yesterday that said they have a whole team that is constantly watching new laws and trying to prevent gun restrictions. I would bet they work with FPC a lot. So just wandering if that team could do anything.

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also try goa and nra-ila maybe they can help too.

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Ya, I have reached out to FPC, I let my GOA membership lapse and I gave up on the NRA long ago. I am waiting to hear was FPC might say. Thanks!

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I live in Texas, and I DO NOT have an LTC. I have never been asked for my ID for any suspected weapons violations. I have, however, been pulled over a few times for suspected moving violations. Most of those few times were for seatbelt violations while driving my old truck, which only came with lap belts.

One of those times I had my Sub2000 folded up and sitting on the passenger side. Texas DPS (Department of Public Safety - a state cop) pulled me over and swaggered up KNOWING he had me for no seatbelt. That’s a pretty big fine down here. After I proved to him my truck was too old to have a shoulder belt, he seemed a little (alot) deflated.

So he sees the KelTec on the seat and starts to puff up again, states it is illegal to have it on the seat within arms reach, needed to be secured, magazine empty, etc, etc…

Insert Backstory Here:

During this particular period in my life, I was an active supporter of Open Carry Texas and I had a plastic file cabinet of propaganda in my truck, including a current state issued copy of the Texas Penal Code. I had all the major points of his argument already printed out with excerpts of the penal code giving all chapter and verse references.

I started pulling information out and asked him to get his copy of the TPC he is supposed to carry for reference. Every point he made was false. I provided him with information of where to look and he looked it up in his own copy of the code. Again, he seemed deflated.
He was gone before I had all my paperwork back in the filing cabinet.

On another traffic stop, local PD pulled me over in my Expedition for a headlight being out. The officer was polite and courteous, so I responded in kind. He introduced himself, stated why he pulled me over and requested license and insurance. Standard stuff. When I provided the documents, he asked if I had anything illegal in the vehicle. No, Sir. Nothing illegal. Do you have any weapons in the vehicle? Yes, Sir. I have my sidearm on my right side and a pistol caliber carbine folded up in a backpack on the back seat. His eyes brightened up at the mention of the PCC in the backpack.

He asked, not demanded, if we could come back to the PCC in the backpack. Of, course, Sir.
He stepped back to his vehicle, ran my info and was back in just a couple minutes. Everything was in order, of course, and he gave me a verbal warning for the headlight.

He then explained he was in the market for a PCC and asked which one I had and why I had that one? I asked if we could step to the back of the vehicle for show and tell. He agreed. I broke out the Sub2K and put it in his hands. I explained to him why I purchased that one instead of others on the market. We talked a short minute about our favorite firearms, shook hands and parted company.

I have even had local PD respond to my house because of calls about “man with a gun.” Out cutting my grass on sunny Saturday mornings I have had cops roll up, plural, and here I am walking behind my mower with my gun on my hip. Nothing illegal about it according to the Texas Penal Code. I did have one rookie try to bite off into me and he got schooled too.

Even before Texas had Constitutional Carry, the Texas Penal Code provided private citizens could carry however they wanted to carry on their private property as long as it was not in a manner to cause alarm. Some bleeding heart liberals take that as anytime they see a weapon or know someone has a weapon, there should be alarm. It doesn’t work that way. Their fear of my weapon does not supersede my right to carry. I can carry on any property I own or any property I am in control of. Chapter 46.02 of the Texas Penal Code spells it out in black and white.

My experiences may not fit the thread subject directly. With not having an LTC, I DO NOT need to identify myself as a gun owner/gun carrier to law enforcement, but I do anyway. I know the black and white of our laws here and I know I am not doing anything illegal with my guns. Also, I live in a not so small, not so big community and the local PD here is kinda chill. They don’t get worked up over the small stuff. I find if they are polite and courteous and I am polite and courteous, things go alot smoother during interactions.

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I live in Texas also, and I have also never had LEO ask for ID simply for a gun. However that is still the law for LTC holders. I maintain my LTC to carry in places that Constitutional carry does not allow or have signs. Such as constitutional carry can not carry in any business with the general gunbuster signs, but LTC can carry unless they post a 30.06/30.07 signs, which fewer business do because they are big signs at the front door.
Anyway, the only time I had LEO trying to get my ID when he could not legally demand it, I was not carrying. Heck I was on my own property and my gun was literally right beside me in the garage when he walked up, but I was not carrying it. So I refused ID then, but it got me thinking about that law and if I had my gun on me, I would have had to give ID even though he had no reason for it. So that is really the personal story behind my mission to get this changed. Not super exciting though. lol

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It may not be SUPER exciting, Brother, but it is exciting. You are not the only person I have heard complain of that little piece of the law. I have several close friends with LTC and they all complain of the same thing.

Complain to your local state reps. Bring it to their attention. I can’t comp-lain to my local reps about it because I don’t have an LTC. I have no dog in the race.

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Even within the specific area of gun control laws…or individual Rights and Liberties generally… I have to be honest, it feels like this would fall very far down the list of priorities to spend resources addressing

Even Texas specifically I’d want to get rid of some of your stupid off limits locations for carry before worrying about this

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Don’t have to have an LTC to complain about bad law. More people talk about it, the more they will look.

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I agree to a point, but between a few prohibited places and giving up your 4th amendment, I want to be secure in my person and papers. There are other, albeit less effective, methods of self defense, but there is little defense against a bad cop.

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What would changing this law do about a “bad cop”?

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The ability to legally deny giving up your papers (ID). The way it stands right now, a cop can walk up to you and ask for ID. No reason at all, and you must give it to him. I know people say, “well I have nothing to hide.” It is the same reason USCCA tells you to contact them and keep your mouth shut. Do NOT talk to LEO. A bad cop can do plenty of damage to a person with just an ID.

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I don’t know if this will help but the 2nd Amendment groups I belong to have members (read me as member) keep up with all firearms legislation as it is proposed and we send out an alert to all of our members with call lists and email addresses of all committee members.

There are a number of resources

I personally use the State provided tracker. We had a bill to force CC to ID but were able to stop it in Committee last year. We have a bill pending right now that we have responded to, and as of yesterday, it was taken off of the agenda. That’s about the best way I know to make our voice heard is to catch them in Committee.

This probably doesn’t answer but see what pro 2A groups serve your area and get involved with them.

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Coming to Texas in (100) Hours Sir (I can’t wait!)
First the Hardware: I PLAN—not written in stone to bring
my AR Carbine, My TaurusG3c, My M&P9 Full (don’t leave home without it).
and Maybe my old M4 w/ Laser, Night scope, flash, Shorty Barrel…any problems you foresee?
The M&P (hip)
Taurus(fanny pack-Back up)
AR/M4 in their cases in the back under luggage
M206 lockbox case under the seat. (Not attached to vehicle)

Too much?
I have a Level3 Guard card (NM)
County Bernalillo Court Officers Permit (NM)
DoD AFB TS Clearance card
CCW (NM)
I looked up rules and reg’s and it seems to favor the TX. RESIDENT not Visitors.
Visiting the Alamo I might have to be unarmed (I guess I’m NOT going to the Alamo)
Day’s Inn says I’m cool as long as they are cased up
The Omni say’s NYET to firepower–so the long guns stay in the car (Private Parking----w/ Security)
Any issues sightseeing as long as I’m not wearing a drop leg or in full view?

Thanx Bruce/RedBeard/Gunners…

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The thing to look for is not a requirement that LTC holders produce ID when asked, but whether your LTC is reported and maintained in the NCIC (National Crime Information Center) database along with the particulars of felons and criminals being monitored by the state. In my state, Colorado, local sheriffs often reported those who applied for CCW permits to the NCIC. The reason given was a bogus “officer safety.”

The practical impact is that when you might interact with LE, your name will come up as an individual who carries a gun, turning a routine encounter into one where the officer may feel threatened because you possess a firearm.

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Welcome to Texas (soon). Texas has full reciprocity with NM, so you should be good with your NM CCW. thealamo.org says that “concealed and open carry allowed with permit.” (There is a state law actually prohibiting gov owned locations (with few exceptions) from outright baring firearms) So you should be good to carry at the Alamo, be a shame not to being the history behind it. It is a neat place to visit.
There is an app called Texas3006 that will show gun restricted sites and the validity of them around you, pretty good little app. Just know that 30.06 sign means no concealed carry and 30.07 means no open carry when you have CCW/LTC. Any “gunbuster” signs or general no firearms sign means jack crap to a CCW/LTC holder, it MUST be the 30.06/30.07 signs in 1 inch lettering displayed at the entrance.
As for the Hotels, you are renting the room so that room is your property for the period of time, so you can have them open in the room, just have to unload and case them to go through lobby. Now, hotels are private businesses so they can kind of do what they want, but if you have paid for the room, it is yours unless it is actually in the agreement.
So ya, if you are CC, then just look out for 30.06 signs and, of course, federal property. That app is helpful as well. Have fun in the great state of Texas!

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100% there are trade off everywhere, that we shouldn’t have to make, one reason I don’t want to identify to LEO just because he asks. On the street, they do not know my name so can’t run it. In Texas, you don’t have to give a name unless legally arrested (unless you have LTC). So, unless they can ID my truck and track the license plate, they should not even know if I have an LTC or not. Now, there are plenty of ways they can track you down, I know. I had an overzealous officer get my wife’s phone number from a store she called, found my name as her emergency contact at the DMV, then got my address and showed up at my house in another town. All when no crime was committed, and he stated that. Now he threatened me with a city ordinance that does not exist, but I addressed that with his capt as well as he actions onsite, but him tracking me down like that was 100% legal. So, ya there are always ways to track people down, that is why I want to close loopholes like this.

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You understand that the LTC you applied for and maintain is your entry into the state gun-owner database. If it’s entered in the NCIS, you will pop up whenever LE runs your name (e.g., runs your license plate or your driver’s license).

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