Good backup choice @Arnie_W.
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I don’t have a 380. I have a . 32 and . 22. Neither has allot of kick. Both have a pop-up barrel so I don’t have to rack a slide. If possible see if there is a gun store with a range so you can try out the gun before buying it. I also have a .38 which does have a kick.
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There may some confusion in this discussion, let me shine a light on some mistaken comments.
- Makarov is a name given to a weapon after the inventor designed a round for it as a 9X18. It was designed so that only the military would have ammo for the weapon. It is called a 9X18, but that is not totally true. The bullet dia. is .364 or closer to 9.3 MM.
- The .380ACP has a smaller bullet dia. at .355 or 9 MM. the case length is shorter at 17MM or .680. The cartridge may fire in a Makarov pistol, but accuracy would suffer. The next problem is the case length most weapons in this group are not held in firing position by a rim at the rear of the cartridge, but it is positioned by the front of the cartridge. When loaded into a Makarov weapon the rear of the cartridge(primer) is near .030 away from the firing pin as opposed to the 9X18 Makarov round.
- In my opinion you should never mix calibers in a given weapon. That said I am someone will try and maybe get the cartridge to fire, but in some cases, the pressures and the bullet dia. mismatches could lead to a damaged weapon or worst yet, damage to the person holding the weapon.
I am not trying to be your mother, but this site has a lot of new shooters that may not understand all of the nomenclatures. A 9MM is a 9MM, except when it is not.
Larry
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Thank you, but there is no confusion and what information you stated is already known, though some might find it of interest.
- Yes, it is 9.3 but the rd is called a 9x18. No, you can not fire a 9x18 in a .380 which is a 9x17, or a 9x19 which is the 9 mm we generally associate with 9mm firearms.
2), there is no attempt to MIX ammunition. The Makarov (and it is known that it is names such for the credited inventor, Nikolay Fyodorovich Makarov), was made in the 9x18 and the 9x17. There is no mixing of calibers.
- Already addressed in #2. No mixing of calibers was suggested or discussed.
Sorry, but I am not sure where you saw any confusion, and if there was some issue that required clarity, please let it be known and if my comment I will try to clarify or correct.
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Actually, it was designed so that invading NATO troops could not use the ammunition, like it had happened just a few years prior when invading Wehrmacht captured Soviet ammo depots. Which NATO weapons were chambered in .380 - I am not sure. Could have been Soviet paranoia.
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Some European military and police did use .32 and .380, but the primary was 9mm, 7.62mm and 5.56mm.
Though the 7.62 was developed basically in the 1950s and the Makarov was developed in around… 1949 or so… along with the 5.56 was early 1960s … roughly, and the 7.62x39 was developed in the early 1940s…
Not sure where there is an overlap that would suggest the 9x18 was developed to prevent NATO nations from using it, as the NATO nations developed ammunition that was different than the Warsaw Pact, or Warsaw Pact munitions were developed before NATO munitions.
There is much history, and some has become rather vague due to the fog of time.
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Hmm. there is a lot of differences with the stories.
I think the true story is this one:
1893 - 7.65×25mm Borchardt cartridge was designed.
Then it was used in Mauser C96 pistol and was eventually adjusted with a stronger powder charge and this way we had 7.63x25mm Mauser cardridge.
In 1930 Fedor Tokarev came with 7.62x25 Tokorev as an enhanced version of the Mauser cartridge.
However everybody knew these enhancements were common in Russia / Soviet Union: Security through incompatability
The same story with Makarov:
9x19 Parabellum (Luger) was introduced in 1902. I’m not sure when it was adopted by NATO, but due to changed technology Soviet Union wanted something better than 7.62x25 Tokorev.
The Soviet military required that their ammunition should be incompatible with NATO so in 1947 Nikolay Makarov designed his pistol chambered with 9x18 cartridge (designed by Boris V. Semin year earlier) making new name: 9x18 Makarov
So any Russian / Soviet design came always after and was made to be slightly different (incompatible, but good enough as original)
One thing is true - Soviet military doctrine had been always to use incompatible stuff.
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The history is even more convoluted and, shall we say, unofficial.
The Soviet doctrine to use incompatible small arms ammo was not formulated until German invasion in 1941. You do know that Red Army and Nazi Wehrmacht held military parades together and were buddy-buddies in general, almost up until June 1941? Of course Red Army wanted unified ammo with the their trusted “ally”.
History of TT33 begins with Americans delivering some advance machining equipment to USSR in 1929. At which point Red Army brass wanted to rip off both Colt 1908 and 1911 models. Turned out they couldn’t do that even with new equipment. So, a much simpler and cheaper TT33, along with 7.62x25 round, were born out of that project.
As for PM, there is a reason why model based on Walther PP won the competition. A unified military and security forces sidearm had to be approved by the State Security reps and State Security used Walther PP extensively - during purges. Red Army leadership had known since 1930s they needed a more powerful sidearm, similar in performance to Walther P38 or Colt 1911. I guess they held their tongues, as their State Security colleagues could have arranged demonstration of the new PM - on them. Designing PM on top of Walther PP was a strategic winning move for Makarov.
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It depends on the gun and the purpose for having it. If I’m carrying, I prefer to have at least a .380 (I carry a 9 mm but have carried a .380 because it was supposed to have less kick… it didn’t).
The size of the gun and how it fits in your hands will make a huge difference as to the recoil. The right grip can definitely change how you feel/handle the recoil. (Talk with a local USCCA instructor and they can work with you on the best grip for you.)
If it’s not for carry, a larger firearm will have less kick but will weigh more (the weight will reduce some of the recoil).
I’d suggest working with a local instructor and trying out a number of different firearms. That way you will find what works for you.
A couple to try would include the Glock 44 (22 caliber), M&P 380 EZ or 9 EZ, Sig 365 (9mm) - they’re all smaller firearms.
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Not necessarily. The key is to get the shooter to have a gun they can shoot confidently and accurately. This answer always depends on the shooter.
Neither round is pefect for defense, but what matters is how well the shooter can manage the pistol. Also remember, there aren’t a lot of .380s with great sights.
I would take the shooter to a range, let them try .22 first, then .380 or full size 9 (a G19 will be easier to shoot than a Ruger LCP I’ll bet).
Buying a gun for a shooter without letting them try it first is not something I can recommend.
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Dawn, great post. I’d add the Glock 43x and the Springfield Hellcat to that list as well.
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I see you indicated that you carry a Bersa Thunder, . 380. I am getting older and now find myself dealing with arthritic hands. The small .380’s such as the Ruger and Keltec are very difficult for me to operate the slide and the trigger pull on both are long and heavy. I believe the Bersa is single or double action? I am thinking that a single action semi auto in .380 made of metal might just work for me. I was wondering what your thoughts might be. Do you carry the Bursa cocked with one in the chamber?
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Thanks for the question; @Patrick45 you are correct. I carry the bersa thunder cc in .380. It is a single/double action with a decocker. And I do carry it loaded, with one in the pipe. I havent felt safer CC’ing with any other weapon. It’s a nice feature that, when a bullet is in the barrel, a red tab pops out on the left side- for an extra visual reminder.
As far as what you’re looking for, the only drawback I could see, is that the trigger pull is heavy. More so than my sig .45. However, it’s a short pull, and after that first shot, the trigger pulls much easier and sooner. It also happens to be my most accurate weapon… or I should say, I’m most accurate with this weapon Haha. Let me know if you have any other questions!
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Indeed.
It is in part the purpose, but there are also other considerations. If you are in shorts and a tank top, a lightweight firearm such as a Taurus 738 (10 oz) which is a .380 or a .22 LR such as a NAA Ranger or a Beretta mdl 21 Bobcat (.22LR and .25ACP) both around 11.5 oz, or the Taurus Pocket Pistol in .22LR (or .25 ACP) about 11 oz.
Small, easy to carry in a pocket or a small holster IWB even with shorts and a tank top. Small, lightweight, and easy to conceal.
So, it is not just the purpose of the firearm, it is the occasion, the function or event you are attending and the attire you will have on.
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Patrick, check out a Sig 238, single action, metal, small .380 with decent sights. Or the 938, just a tad larger but 9mm, ambI safety. Great little pistols, accurate and reliable.
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Dwayne: Thank you for your replies. They are much appreciated. I will check out the Sig 238 and the 938. I was wondering, do you carry your Bursa in the cocked position?
Again thank very much for your replies.
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Actually at one time .32 ACP had more 1 shot stops than the .380 per Evans and Marshall. .22 LR or .22 RF Magnum can be good defense rounds. A .22LR rifle with a 16 1/2 inch barrel actually packs almost as much energy as a .45 acp in a 4" barrel. If you are looking for less recoil there are some good options.
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But surely all that energy will not be transferred into the intended target like a.45
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