A good video explaining and discussing why engagement distances for dead LEO is not what we should be looking at.
Great discussion in this video
4 Likes
From the video it is stated it is 9 to 15 feet that is the average distance.
3 Likes
Thatās what most sayā¦3-5 yards or 9-15 feet is the vast majority
3 Likes
Iām guessingā¦ it might be 3 yardsā¦ I never paid attention to this difference.
3 feet or 3 yards - with deadly weapon attack - the counter attack must be fast in both cases.
Thatās the best statistics for civilian market.
4 Likes
lol
Thanks!
3 Likes
How do you compare your times day to day, RE: distance they were shot at?
1 Like
When I started long distance precision shooting, I learned that itās a lot easier to hit targets that are near than those that are far (duh). But after getting consistent at distance shooting, I found hitting nearby targets to be a breeze. The same translated to handgun as well. If I can hit targets consistently at 25 yards, I can easily hit them at 5 yards.
The Indiana mall murderer was stopped at a distance of 40 yards. Thatās not typical for a self defense situation, but it does happen. The way I see it, if you train to stop a bad guy at 40-50 yards, you should have no problem stopping one at 3 yards. But if you only train for distances less than 10 yards, youāll have a really hard time stopping someone at 25 yards if you ever need to.
7 Likes
That is assuming I didnāt leave āX.ā
When I observe a potential area of concern, I try to mentally train to get out of X, find cover or concealment.
3 Likes
Moving off the X or trying to avoid any situation is good but then all of a sudden there you are, life or death. You cannot pre-determine the distance they ambush you at or just when it happens. Your getting into your car and they they come between you and your door. or, they are in your house and they are at the other side of the house the distance is variable and so should your training be variable distances.
5 Likes
RE: Distances, and āthere are youā
Next time any of us are at a store, be it Scheels, Academy, Walmart, Home Depot, the grocery storeā¦walk down an aisleā¦stop in the middle of the aisle and think āwhat if someone was shooting from the end of the aisleā. How far would that be?
7 Likes
I think this is largely true from an accuracy perspective though practicing different techniques at shorter distances is still essential. There is a big difference in presentation, sight alignment and movement between a threat that is 50 or even 25 yards away and one that is coming at you from 3 yards away.
In my one serious multi day in person self defense pistol class the instructor had a target pulled by a fellow student who was behind you with a rope. Believe it was set up 7 yards away. You couldnāt draw until the target started moving and the puller would play with the rope while the instructor talked to you to make it harder to get a jump on the target before it started the charge. Drawing from concealment, if I waited to pull the trigger until I was fully extended with eyes on the sights, the wheeled target was hitting the stoppers in front of me just after my first shot was going off and only then if I was drawing smooth and fast. I could sometimes get off two shots before the stoppers but I wasnāt looking at the sights and the first shot was before I was extended.
The moral of that story was that even if you have already drawn, aimed and start firing as soon as the target starts moving from that distance they are still likely to make contact with you even if you hit them several times, unless you are hitting them while moving out of the way. I have practiced 50 yard shots with a pistol after a quick move but not while moving and not from compressed ready or from the hip.
With a threat only 3 yards away they will very likely be on top of you before you can get the gun out of the holster unless you can distract them before they move or use physical force to redirect them or fend them off. I have been playing around with this a in my Krav Maga classes and it almost always works out best to use both my hands to take care of the threat until I can create enough time and distance for a clean draw.
The brief version of what I am saying is that from an accuracy perspective if you can hit a target at 50 yards it will be a breeze to hit one at 3 yards. But dealing with a threat at 50 yards requires a whole different set of skills and actions than dealing with one at 3 yards.
4 Likes
I once read an article which said an FBI study showed that 86% of self-defense shootings happen inside of 5 yards. I generally practice at sevenš¤·š¼āāļø.that being said, once a month I will spend most of a session practicing out to 25 yds. I find doing so, make me a better shooter at the closer ranges
12 Likes
Good topic. I do most of my practice at 10 yards. I start off standing still then work in taking a step to the left or right. Lately Iāve been also going out to 15 and 20 yards to take a few shots. For me I found that I aim too high at the longer distances.
4 Likes
Just finished reviewing Craig Douglasā (Southnarc) presentation on extreme close quarter combat in an armed environment on the Warrior Poet Society Network. The premise is many violent encounters start with an ambush from hands on distance, and you must be able to defend with hands and feet in order to retain a concealed weapon that most likely has no retention feature, fight for room to present it, then use it if justified in a manner safe to yourself. Certainly marksmanship, safe handling and dealing smoothly with malfunctions are a necessary base, but most range training where the shooter cannot move, the targets donāt move and donāt grab, punch, clinch, stab, or shoot back, does not address the reality of violent encounters. So, what is a good distance to start defensive firearms training? Point blank with your forehead in contact with the target. SIRT pistols, UTM, force on force hands on training, all can contribute to a better rounded experience. Remember, itās not a gunfight until you have a gun in hand. And so it goesā¦
5 Likes
Because for the past four months itās simply been too hot in Houston, TX to go to the firing range, Iāve bee practicing at 11 yards with the Strikeman system. Iāve found that is the furthest distance the Strikeman can accurately been used in daylight.
At the range I usually shoot at ten yards, my standard being can I do a ten yard dump shooting as rapidly as possible and have all my shots on an 8.5" x10" sheet of paper (preferably inside the 9" target printed on the paper).
Iām 81 years old, so I hope to live out the rest of my life never finding out if that is good enough in a self-defense situation.
8 Likes
It all depends they play by their own rules because they have a badge and donāt have to worry about making that Split Decision as much not saying theyāre not at risk or they might have to shoot someone but we have to play it over and over in our head as Citizens that is it worth losing our freedom over are you absolutely sure this needs to be done and I practice with every distance close far random objects placed in random areas where I cut the corner and donāt see them to the last second like bottles sounds cheesy but I train in my yard with a 1.1 big p365 pellet gun that fits my holster like my favorite EDC I have multiple guns but thatās the one that goes with me the most so I train the most with that and it seems to be pretty spot on because when I go to the range those targets get hammered LOL but they had a big debate about this it was called the 21 foot rule a lot of channels on YouTube are doing it and they donāt prove it to be logical because they can close that Gap faster than on paper supposed to say by law enforcement and instructors
2 Likes
I mostly shoot at 7 to 10 yards. Most times I will do 1 mag at 25 just to see before I leave the range. I agree that if you can hit at longer distances then shorter will become easier. What wasnāt mentioned is the liability that results in the longer shots. If you shoot someone at 25 + yards, will you be able to articulate a defense in court that the subject was an immediate threat. Every bullet has a lawyer attached to it.
Second, If you are the intended target, most likely it will be an up close ambush. You better have some close quarters hand to hand skill. Going immediately to gun will most likely result in extra cuts or shots to you. That is the flaw in the 21 foot rule. If I intend to stab you, my knife wonāt be visible until Iām within a couple feet. If I intend to shoot you and I think youāre armed, Iām going to shoot you from behind. Speaking on the criminal perspective of course.
5 Likes
'Iāve always been told - 3 feet, 3 rds, 3 seconds . Thatās what we should expect most of the time".
That sounds about right for an Average training regimeā¦
However, I am no expert by far (I just got lucky a lot) I know folks Luck is like hope it doesnāt float.
What I have found though may be picked apart
but real world $hit is from āWhere ever you are to the Target " So basically (3ā) to (20ā).
Iāve never used a handgun that far away so I canāt tell my accuracy now a days
I just send a target (or set up one) then shoot the piss outta it THEN look at the electronic
dial or distance markersā¦
I just Train, train, train at all different distances, snap shots, either hand, both hands, slow and steady,
mag dumps, clear an imaginary jam, stick and move, from cover whatever I think I could use in a pinch. Since I found the outdoor range my accuracy has improved greatly because the restrictions of Lame Indoor ranges diminished.
No idiot RO with no experience watching over my shoulder helps (and please donāt get me wrong a Good RO saves lives, itās the nit-picky that can ruin the practice sessions). The facts of NOT having hearing protection sometimes helps, Not really āgetting ready/setā, always counting on slow aimed shots have helped me to not jerk the trigger. Plus getting use to a variety of weapons helps me to be more sure of myself if I need to improvise on the fly w/ an enemies/dropped piece I feel more prepared for something all of a sudden coming @ me.
Just my 2 cents
WWG1WGA
6 Likes
It is important to drill down a little on the statistics you cite;
These statistics are regarding law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties. Obviously, police officers must engage at close range with subjects (suspects). Picture traffic stops, arrest scenarios, and even simple field interviews.
There is value in understanding these distances, but the majority of armed citizen encounters are not going to fall into to these stats.
Nevertheless, I will share our training regarding distances;
- The primary training with distances discussed was for surviving edged weapon assaults. It was demonstrated that an assailant can cover 21 feet (7 yards) in the time it takes the average officer to draw and level his firearm.
- Much of the training for surviving close in gunfights centered around maintaining quality equipment, including drawing and re-holstering, Also covered was when to have our gun out at certain initial contacts, appropriate stance and location, etc.
- Most applicable to armed citizens was the training to āmoveā. This could be simple āstep and slideā all the way to full retreat.
Obviously, the law enforcement requirements are most often not going to apply. Especially the 21 feet distance covered in the time it takes to draw and level. Virtually all CCW situations wherein the firearm is retrieved will be slower. This includes ālag timeā and mindset, thereby increasing the danger zone.
In armed citizen situations, if the assailant is armed with a firearm, he does not have to cover distance so training further out is recommended.
However, most armed encounters seem to be related to domestic scenarios including intrusions, wherein the assailant is indeed advancing, i.e. an ex-husband or daughterās ex-boyfriend, or possibly a criminal intruder trying to force his way into the house.
3 Likes
How big is your bedroom from the head of your bed to the door coming in? 15 feet maybe? Iād say practice āpoint shootingā (no sights) and ānight shootingā (no light) with the point technique. The key is practice. Have a burglar alarm or better yet, a dog!
5 Likes