The Up Close Gunfight

When I’m at the range, I have a tendency to want to see how I shoot at longer distances. (We talk about what distance you set your target at here)

I know very well a self-defense shooting isn’t going to happen at 25+ feet unless I’m defending another - and at that distance, there are so many other things to consider.

Here’s a great Into the Fray where Kevin shows a video of “The Statistically Perfect Gunfight” where distance is discussed.

Does this make you want to tweak your training at all? If so, how? If not, why not?

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I stay as trained as I can at all distances. Steady accurate fire at a sustained speed at a silhouette at 25 yards is good training. Same as 3 yards. The fight isn’t just up to you, the other person gets a vote too.

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I shoot at multiple unknown distances and angles.
I agree with @James that you should feel comfortable putting slow sustained rounds down range at distance. Sometimes that may save more lives by buying time

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I don’t mean slow, I shoot as fast and accurately as possible, so generally a round a second at 25 yards. I do shoot faster as the targets get closer.

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https://share.icloud.com/photos/0flSVisWEQDwtzL3aUM7ibKxg
Here is how I usually train with my CC, I do use many different platforms like a hostage situation, this is when I have to slow down a lot. In this video, I’m using my S&W M&P Sheild .45 with a 7 round mag, this is the gun I carry the most. I have gotten a bunch of guys at the club to start training with me this way, it’s amazing how many of us don’t train with our CC because we’re always training for IDPA or USPSA matches. It’s absolutely advantageous to train with your CC a lot. Enjoy the video, if you like this one, I can post more of them for you. :sunglasses:

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That’s awesome @Steve-G! Do you have a partner you train with? It might be interesting to change it up and have them call out who is the threat (Left/Center/Right) as you’re walking up. The other are innocents or additional threats - could be interesting. :slight_smile:

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Sometimes I do, this was taken when I first started training with my CC on a serious level. Like I mentioned, I do change it up with hostages and innocents that are behind the perp, so you can’t just shoot like in this video, you have to really think and make good decisions. It’s not as easy as it looks, I believe this was timed out at 3.26 seconds from the time I touched the target. Not bad for an old guy. :flushed:

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Watch how fast this situation turns deadly, I think this officer defended herself perfectly, maybe a little excessive on the round count, but maybe she had to shoot him this many times.
Here’s a basic traffic stop gone very wrong, she is trained well, she never puts herself directly in his eye line and takes as much cover as she can. This is scary stuff.
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OK, I jumped!

The light makes it hard to see what was going on after the initial shot. If the attacker was still coming after her, it’s a totally legitimate reason to continue shooting, right @Steve-G.

Didn’t expect the adrenaline rush from watching that. :hushed:

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I train for multiple distance in different ways. Up close and personal, is a draw and point shoot. The farther back I get, the more I use the sights. With my carry gun, I usually go to at least 25 yards, an up to 75-100 yards. Those shots are slow and calculated. I can hit a 12x12 target at 100 semi-consistently.

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Yes Dawn, I believe that she was justified in shooting as many times as she did. It was dark and adrenaline kicked in, also where he started this by shooting at her, who knows what was next? I counted about 3 shots by the perp, it’s hard to tell exactly, and 15 shots from the officer. The angle she was shooting from, light conditions, we also don’t know if she was hit, even with a vest, that hurts a lot. There is also the unknown, what was going through her head. If a civilian took 15 shots in a defensive situation, you know it would be deemed as excessive deadly force, we have always been taught to get it done in 3 shots, but we have to do what we have to do. My only question is, out of those 15 shots fired, how many hits, and how many strays? It looks like a secluded area, but what if it were on a freeway during rush hour, would she have done the same thing?

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I had that thought too - and was anyone in the back seat of the car? I didn’t see anyone, but that doesn’t mean there wasn’t anyone.

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Hey @Steve-G I tried to view the video and it says not available… and I do want to see :smiley:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0o9y-b7Xb0kF4ufMy5zG_VUsg
Hopefully you can see this one. :sunglasses:

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Cool! That worked! Nice work too.

Are you training IDPA or are you training for concealed carry? If it is IDPA, it’s OK to do two to the body and one immediately to the head. But if you trained that way that’s the way you will fight.
If you’re training for CCW on the street, and you had only one adversary, they are close( one step or closer) you might want to go for their gun, to prevent them from shooting you.
If they are further away, you should move, laterally or to cover or concealment while deliver your rounds to the thoracic cavity, then assess. If your adversary is no longer a threat, you’d go into 360 degree after action. If after assessing, your threat is still active, immediately come up and deliver one round cranial ocular cavity, then go into 360 degree after action.
If you have multiple adversaries on the street, while moving, deliver one round each adversary , then after action. If any of your adversaries are still a threat deliver one round cranial ocular cavity and into 360 degree after action.
With multiple adversaries remember “Boarding House Rules.” “Everybody gets firsts, before anyone gets seconds.”

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Never heard this before but LOVE IT

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I teach and train for the most, less, and least common concentrating on the most which is from contact to 12’.

I practice less and suggest to students to do the same at the less and least likely distances.

It never hurts to challenge yourself at distance but it’s mostly for fun because when you get to beyond 21’ you’re talking about an extremely rare situation.

Time and money are two things most of us will never have in abundance so it only makes sense to use both as wisely as possible when training.

I also find particularly with novice shooters starting off up close and working out slowly builds confidence and with enough repetitions slowly builds your skills such that when you do start stretching things out you still succeed.

As long as they are having fun they will push themselves and keep practicing but particularly for the novice shooters, early disappointment may turn them off of it completely.

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There is shooting for pleasure and there is fighting with a gun. You have to be able to safely shoot and manipulate your gun before learning to fight with it. That said, if I’m stressed for time and at an outdoor range I shoot a 8 1/2" X 11" paper from 7 yards to contact. I throw in movement and strong hand weak hand. Just an old street cops way of doing things based on my and other’s experience in the street. With enough repetitions it becomes like a boxer throwing a combination. Instinctive. At five yards and in I’m not looking at the sights, at least not intentionally. I’m looking over the top of the slide focusing on the target and the sight is just there slightly blurred.

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