Should people off the street be given minimal firearm training and cut loose on a range?

[Jerzees]

@Mike164

Did I read that right? You disagree with the words “it’s my goddamn constitutional right”? A you may want to take a look at that ole Constitution, it really is my goddamn constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Just sayin.

@Joel106

Jerzees. Been thinking aboit your comment on the 2nd. Basically it comes back to it is our god given right. Our country was founded on numerous rights and our beloved constitution.

Should some people own guns? Thats more of an ethical question vs a constitutional question.

I will respond to both:

It’s not about the rights written in the Constitution.
It’s about the people who want to exercise those rights - how to they understand rights, how to they respect the rights of other people.
You cannot just do whatever you want saying “it’s guarantied by the Constitution”… it’s just thoughtless.

What about these words written long before the Constitution?

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I want to live a happy life, not thinking about somebody who thinks he can run with gun next to me not knowing what is he doing.
It’s not a gun control, it just a desire of people to be responsible for everything they are doing.
Using The Constitution to cover recklessness never was and never will be accepted by me.

[Shamrock]

@Wilfred5

50 First time shooters from 22 different counties in 8 months. This is a real RED FLAG

If the range is anywhere near a tourist destination or somewhere that foreign businesspeople might go for meetings I wouldn’t find it surprising at all.

If I was stuck living in a country where my right to access basic self defense tools was denied I would jump at the chance to give them a try if I found myself somewhere that allowed me to do so. I don’t think foreign terrorists or criminals are going to get much useful experience from a 10 to 15 minute safety lecture and sending a couple boxes of ammo down range. Most here seem to agree that is not enough training to safely or effectively use a firearm.

[Joel106]

I understand what your saying but its a pipe dream. Nowadays it doesn’t work that way, wish it did.

[Will_B]

I will give you this….

@Jerzees

I want to live a happy life, not thinking about somebody who thinks he can run with gun next to me not knowing what is he doing.

But not this.

@Jerzees

It’s not about the rights written in the Constitution.
It’s about the people who want to exercise those rights - how to they understand rights, how to they respect the rights of other people.
You cannot just do whatever you want saying “it’s guarantied by the Constitution”… it’s just thoughtless.

Actually yes, they can do whatever they want, it is enshrined I the constitution….

That said, there may be consequences to their actions.

Those are otherwise known as laws.

@Jerzees

It’s not a gun control, it just a desire of people to be responsible for everything they are doing.

AKA, gun control.

Because people control is impossible

[Jerzees]

There are so many “gun issues” these days that I stopped arguing about.
I’m living old way: If you don’t bother me, I do not bother you.
That’s why I moved to suburbs and have been living happy life with my Family.
I don’t care if my City is Red or Blue, as long as nobody forbids me to be happy and safe.

Everybody needs to be responsible for him / her - self and let other live among.
More such people around - better place to live and less discussions like this one.

[Jerzees]

@Will_B
I don’t like neverending discussions… and this is one of them.
Thousands words have been written about “2A - carrying firearms - mandatory training - being responsible”, even on this Community… and unfortunately there is still no good conclusion.

I’ll be standing by my words - be responsible, live happy life among the others, do whatever you like to do, but the way, the others can accept it.

[Joel106]

I live my life the best i can. I follow the so called rules the best i can. I dont live my life to make my neighbors happy so i am accepted.

I only worry about 3 people accepting me. My wife, my daughter and myself. Dont care about anyone else

[Will_B]

@Jerzees

mandatory training

This is the problem I have.

As this discussion pertains to privately owned companies, AKA shooting ranges.

THEY can enforce that regulation on their parishioners.

As it pertains to the constitution,…. Unfortunately, MANDATORY training is an infringement upon the right to keep and bear arms.

Honestly, if my mentality challenged neighbor wants a gun, good for him! (Her? For inclusivity?)

If he/she/they come out in their yard waving it around and shooting into the air,… well then they just announced themselves as a threat and will be dealt with accordingly!

Wether that is calling the cops, or returning fire, would depend on the exact situation.

[Jerzees]

@Will_B

@Jerzees

mandatory training

This is the problem I have.

It’s only a term, unfortunately understood differently, depending on the situation and person’s intentions.

We can agree with one thing:

@Will_B

I guess my answer is that for a gun range, you should have an RO that is dedicated to “new” shooters.

That can be also called a “mandatory training”. it doesn’t need to be a 4h - 6hr - 8 hr or 2 days training… just enough training or instructions so the new shooter can prove RSO or Instructor that he / she is trusted person to handle a firearm between other people.

[Will_B]

@Jerzees

We can agree with one thing:

@Will_B

I guess my answer is that for a gun range, you should have an RO that is dedicated to “new” shooters.

That can be also called a “mandatory training”. it doesn’t need to be a 4h - 6hr - 8 hr or 2 days training… just enough training or instructions so the new shooter can prove RSO or Instructor that he / she is trusted person to handle a firearm between other people.

No,… that would be VOLUNTARY training

As they’ve already purchased their firearms and have “chosen” to come to the classes.

[Paul549]

But that also should be mandatory when going to a range, which is what the OP was about, right?

[Frank261]

After thought in context of Permitless or so called Constitutional carry being adopted be some states. Especially, if National Reciprocity gains traction and that becomes a national thing.

Not everyone wishing to carry has any training, or experience to bring to that, and unfortunately unlike the responsible protectors in the USCCA is self motivated to take that slack up unless it is a mandatory requirement, at least a grounding in safety fundamentals, and the legal consequences of a critical self defense incident.

Some may have had some NRA, Hunter Safety, or Military training and experience, but many if not in law enforcement may have had any handgun training, or a clue about the legal aspects of clearing leather, and the consequences of their actions after that. Failing to appreciate that has all the negative implications that entails.

Some measure of competency is indicated.

[Jerzees]

@Will_B

No,… that would be VOLUNTARY training

Not exactly…
It’s not a shooter who asks RSO for a permission to shoot, its RSO who requires a shooter to show the skills. It’s not a voluntary action.

I actually was part of such training, first time as a new shooter at one of the local Ranges. It was mandatory if I wanted to shoot there and attended classes.
First time I waked in, filled the paperwork I was approached by RSO / Instructor who asked me: “show me how do you handle your firearm”. He didn’t care about how do I shoot, but how safely do I operate.
Did he violate my rights? I say : NO… but some may say : YES… who is right here? I have no idea.. but me personally have nothing against them checking if I can be trusted. And I’m doing the same. I don’t trust strangers with firearm around me and I don’t care if anyone is offended by my actions by checking if such person will be allowed to walk with any firearm around me or my Family.

[Will_B]

@Jerzees

First time I waked in, filled the paperwork I was approached by RSO / Instructor who asked me: “show me how do you handle your firearm”. He didn’t care about how do I shoot, but how safely do I operate.

Again, that is a function of the range, not a function of constitutional rights.

You walked into the range with your gun in hand (holster case whatever)

Without any previous training that the Range officer was aware of, they made the decision (their right as you were in their private property) to ask how you conduct yourself with a firearm.

That’s the decision of the range (private property) and NOT a matter of your constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

[Frank261]

I agree %!

Look at any Protect Academy Training video on the range with Certified USCCA Instructors side by side demonstrating that.

Whenever clearing and safetying a firearm is indicated both in turn visually, and manually inspected the gun demonstrating to the each other that it is indeed clear, and safe.

Both in turn look in the magazine well, and chamber / breach, and touch a pinky tip into the mag well and breach and double check that there is NO ammunition in either the Breach, or the action, and mag well of that firearm.”

No Alex Baldwin B.S. arrogance to the contrary on the set. “I did not know it was loaded with live ammunition, and that if I aimed it at someone, and pressed the trigger that it could kill somebody. Idiot!

He pranked someone else to death. Just thinking “the blank” would only scar, and not kill them.

What part of never point your gun at anyone, or thing that you do not intend to destroy did he not appreciate.

Then no muzzle management, or trigger discipline either.

We know that killed an innocent person.

Contributing fact: Prior safety check skipped when the “armorer” passed him that gun.

Neither preformed a safety check that could have prevented that incident.

Gross negligence by them both.

Due to Baldwin’s epic arrogance. I know it all attitude, and self importance. I don’t have time for this nonsense.

Any, or all the above unnecessarily cost a human life.

A few brief seconds well spent like sitting at a stop sign long enough to look both ways could save a life, even your own life. Just do it.

Your right to be stupid might get you or someone else killed. FULL STOP!

[Will_B]

Fwiw, the local indoor range that I frequent asks that when a gun is not in use or during a ceasefire that it be on the table, breach open and facing up with the muzzle down range so that the RO can visually see the weapon is clear without physically handling it.

I agree with this policy to the extent that even when at other shooting sites that don’t have those regulations I still keep my weapons in that state.

Again though, this is a policy of a private company, and my own personal agreement with that policy for the sake of safety on the range.

Your mileage may vary.

[Doug101]

I think all rights come with a responsibility. Fifteen minutes isn’t enough to teach someone how to handle a firearm responsibly. The RO should be watching them the entire time. Fifteen minutes is a start, not the finish line.

[Scott52]

@Shamrock

Most here seem to agree that is not enough training to safely or effectively use a firearm.

Totally agree! 15 minutes is a salutation, not training. I didn’t take my boys and girls @ 10, 12, 14 and 15 year olds to the range until they finished all my classes, courses of study, handled my firearms, disassembled, cleaned and could describe the fundamental parts of a gun!
Then when that was completed, they had to sign agreements which listed the four main laws of handling a firearm in addition to other safety measures I built into the contract. Still have them!

Then in a month or so we all went to the range, we started with small caliber handguns and worked our way up to rifles. Learning commands, muzzle safety, malfunctions, policing your area, respect for other shooters, etc, etc. It should be months before we put the average Xbox/Playstation player on a range without “one on one” supervision!

I have my private thoughts about several foreigners showing up to a shooting range, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG?
Seen too many holes in the walls, so the answer to the question, is ANYONE that new to the firearms experience should be thoroughly vetted, screened drug tested and subject to a lie detector and possibly a psych exam! Without a doubt a democrat should NEVER be allowed anywhere near a firearm unless they’ve converted

We’re living in an extremely dangerous time.

[Zavier_D]

First off, I am a “Constitutional Absolutist”. The “Constitution” says what it says, and it means exactly what it says. Most of the “Societal Problems” we have are because we have allowed “unchecked and unfettered” power come to rest in the hands of the Federal Government, and even worse now, in the hands of unelected bureaucrats and allowed them to “interpret”.

Remember the guys and gals, who walked the walk and talked the talk. The ones who did the put up or shut up part of founding our once proud Nation. “The Founding Fathers of this Nation”. The ones who wrote the “Constitution” to specifically constrain what Government at any level “could or could not do”.

I am strongly against any infringement. Because as soon as you allow that infringement. It then becomes a moving goal line of “how much training is enough then”? There’s not a firearm owner, that was alive in the 80’s. Who didn’t watch the goal line be moved over and over during the run up to “the Assault Weapons Ban of 1994”. Where the definition of an assault weapon changed as frequently, as it could, as more and more accessories were added to the definition of what was considered to become an assault rifle, the one that kept being stretched to cover almost any semi automatic rifle.

Jesus wept.

We really want to allow more power for the anti 2nd Amendment haters within an already bloated and out of control Federal Government.

[Scott52]

@Zavier_D

“how much training is enough then”?

I don’t consider training enough to get off the training wheels an infringement. I’m sure we’ve all been “trained” smacked in the back of the head before we crossed the street without looking! That was training enough for me and all my kids while it was legal! I never considered that an infringement on the rights to pursue happiness!
IMHO you can’t just turn an untrained “foreigner” loose on our streets with a gun! Who am I kidding, there are probably millions running around every corner of our once beautiful country!