Shooting of Ahmaud Arbery

I can’t wait to see how the shooting of Ahmaud goes down in court so more details come to light like the full video. The so called citizens arrest by the shooters in Georgia went too far IMO. If anything that the shooters said is true chasing someone because they are a suspected theif and then shooting them and claiming self defense is not an acceptable defense. This is the type of thing that makes us gun owners look bad. I can already see the gun grabbers saying it’s the guns fault and using a horrible event like this to throw in the race card and promote some sort of gun control. I also wonder if the person who recorded was involved since he did not record the whole interaction, he panned away a few times.

From another point of view assuming you were the jogger, how would you have avoided that situation? Or handled it since most of us are armed. The whole interaction was very fast.

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Completely agree on all points Harry. Especially in light of the GA statute that states in order to invoke the “citizens arrest” the crime needs to have been witnessed by the individual attempting to make any such arrest.

It almost seems like they were on neighborhood patrol during a WROL (without rule of law) kind of situation and society has gone a little nuts lately, but we haven’t gone full WROL yet. I’m curious as to whom the camera person is also (doesn’t seem to be a lot of info on that).

I guess as the jogger in this case, I wouldn’t have stopped at all (tried to keep going)….if that was unavoidable then I’m not sure from the jogger’s perspective I would have done anything differently in that he only had two options, run away and possibly get shot in the back running or engage the threat close in. He actually did a good job in that he was handling the person with the shotgun. Unfortunately the bad guy had back up. Even if I was armed, I don’t think I would have drawn from the drop, but would have tried to take out the weapon I was facing.

This will absolutely be used by the media to fight against gun ownership in general, weapons registration, concealed carry limitations.

Very tragic, I hope all the facts come to light and justice prevails based on those facts.

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That was a very scary situation for that young man. The moment someone jumps out of a vehicle with a shotgun, that tells me danger is present. That young man was also fighting in self-defense seeing that as a threat. He could’ve ran the other way, but it was hard to see what happened that caused him to fight back.

Sometimes in grave danger, our instinct just tells us that we need to fight back and that’s what Ahmaud did.

I agree, the father and son’s action is no way being a responsible gun owner. Owning guns and having hate just don’t mix (if they are racist).

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:pensive:
With all that’s going on in this country, why is this still happening?
I’ll see how this plays out.
I feel myself growing numb to these types of stories.
Don’t know if that’s good or bad :worried:

(TURNS ON OLD SCHOOL MUSIC) :loudspeaker:
WHATS GOING ON by Marvin Gaye begins to play

:v:t5:

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I really liked Colion Niore’s response to this.

Terrible story. Truly tragic.

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If I feel like I need a shotgun to make a citizen’s arrest, I will not be making that arrest, I will call 911…

The skeptic in me wonders if there might be more to the story, but it certainly does not look good for the shooter(s).

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I guess it depends on distance. It you run from a shotgun, you can get shot in the back. If you’re close enough, you might have a chance to control the barrel. It’s a tough, split-second choice and one I hope that none of us ever need to make, especially when you’re already jogging and out of breath. (Very uncomfortable to run and carry, btw.)

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A Citizens Arrest after an alleged incident, over property issues of any sort that happened somewhere else, is always going to go badly for everyone involved. Let the police handle it.

My weapon is reserved for immediate and unavoidable protection of life.

Those two hillbillies very likely deserve their current fate. It’s unfortunate that the victim wasn’t well armed. Seems like he could’ve taken them both out rightfully in SD.

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I am curious though -

If these guys are one of our members, how would USCCA attorneys handle this?

Would you be fighting for a reduced sentence or free them of all charges?

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I am with you on this - completely lack of common sense - my opinion is they provoked the jogger not the other way around - is this not one of the rules of owning a gun - to only use it as the last resort of defense ! There is no reason for them to have taken the role of police that is why we pay them - sad -upsetting- damaging to gun owners and totally a lack of common sense - my prayers go to the family of mr arbery

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Hard to tell from the very limited video the entire story. It certainly appears Ahmaud is just simply jogging (he is not “running” like you are running from authorities) down this road. And then he is confronted by at least 2 armed men in a pickup truck.

I do not blame anyone in that situation (the runner) for treating it as a lethal-force issue. If two armed men, clearly not police officers, tried to stop me I would 100% draw if I was able. There is no way that story ends well. ESPECIALLY when you add the race lens on top of it.

Anyone who jogs (I dont anymore, havent for decades) hates carrying extra “stuff” on their run. But this is a great reminder that you should always have “something” on you. A phone would have been helpful for when he first noticed them tailing him. Pepper-spray might not have helped in this circumstance, but is always useful for dogs and a potential abductor. A firearm would have been his only other option.

I would want to know about the cameraperson as well. Who drives down the road taking cell phone footage unless you know something is going on? They may have been involved, or at a minimum saw this happening and may have more insight to what happened before video started rolling.

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If you look deeper in USCCA policies, and every “carry insurance” (for lack of a better word), they probably wouldn’t defend these two. From my understanding, all of these programs require “justified use of force”.

I am not an expert in these things in any way, so take this response with a grain of salt.

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This story got me too. This is a bad shoot. I don’t think I needed to be there to know this was not self defense. There is no way those two and I stress TWO guys were in fear for their life, against an unarmed man who they perceived to be a suspect in a burglary.

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From what I’ve seen in the public domain (video, arrest info) there is nothing to make this justifiable. Remember, for justifiable homicide to be argued in court the “defender” must articulate that the “aggressor” had the ability and opportunity to cause death or great bodily harm AND the “defender” was in immediate jeopardy of such harm (The AOJ Tiad).

I haven’t seen anything that meets any of these elements. In fact, if the kid had been able to get a gun from one of them and shoot them, HE would have had a good case for justifiable homicide.

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I would hope that if I were the numbskull in this story, USCCA would still provide the attorney they promised. It’s just a legal professional, not a get out of jail free card. I’m sure every defense attorney has stories about clients they didn’t want.

But if I took the time to read the fine print, I’d probably find out there’s a clause freeing USCCA from any obligation if I’m a moron.

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I decided to look into this case more because it peaked my interest and the original story I read laid all the guilt on the shooter, and I wanted to know what they did wrong, so I could avoid any such issue.
What I found was pretty disturbing for me, especially when I found out the shooter and one of the second’s Attorney generals son worked a prior criminal case that prosecuted the victim. Who also felt that this case was probably justified but was going to let the Grand Jury decide in June.

The original Attorney general stated these laws among others opinions as to why she felt it was justified.
OCGA 16 - 3 - 21 Use force in Defense, once confronted with a deadly force situation an individual is allowed to use
deadly force to defend themselves or others
OCGA 16 - 3- 23 . 1 Georgia’ s No Duty to Retreat Law, an individual is
not required to back away from or submit to an attack;
OCGA 16 - 3- 24 [b ] The use of force which is intended or
likely to cause death or great bodily harm to prevent trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real
property other than a habitation or personal property is NOT justified unless the person using such force reasonably
believes that it is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
OCGA 16 - 3- 24 .2 A person properly and legally defending themselves is immune from prosecution
For the above and foregoing reasons, itis our conclusion there is insufficient probable cause to
issue arrest warrants at this time.

I believe in her own statement this law OCGA 16 - 3- 24 [b ] she posted was the one that trumped the actions that followed(it happened prior to any other action). I am not an attorney so I can’t say for sure but the original 911 caller who is believed to have been the shooter did not state a crime other than trespassing had occurred. From watching all of the proving grounds, where they clearly emphasize that once the threat is over you can no longer use deadly force. To me the threat was over, the police were already on their way, and once the victim left the property of a partially built home that was no longer under construction. At which point the accused gathered his son and into their truck and had the friend follow the victim jogging in a car recording the video, while they took the truck ahead and set up an area to stop the victim. The accused with a shotgun out and giving commands, the victim ran around the truck to avoid the man in the road, which also had an armed man in the back of the truck and was met at the front of the truck by the accused. The victim reached for the shotgun right away and got shot in his right hand, and proceeded to try and hit the accused, he was then shot two more times and died. The Attorney-general stated that due to him pulling on the top of the gun and aiming it in his own direction that it is possible that from the accused having his finger on the trigger, the victim could have pulled enough to have shot himself with the last two shots. That all said, I believe the law below trumps everything that occurred and made this go from self-defense to a criminal act by the shooters. You can not use lethal force to protect property without a forcible felony, and he clearly was not in the process of a crime at the point where they tried to stop them, and this made the accused the aggressor at this point, taking away his right to use deadly force. It was also stated on the 911 call that the victim had been caught on camera at night a few times and had been running up and down the neighborhood for a while(not just that day). Other neighbors stated that the victim jogged in the area so frequently that they believed he was training for something, and others stated he had worked with his dad in the neighborhood doing landscaping. This is not 100% of the details just what stood out to me.

OCGA 16 - 3- 24 [b ] The use of force which is intended or
likely to cause death or great bodily harm to prevent trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real
property other than a habitation or personal property is NOT justified unless the person using such force reasonably
believes that it is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony

What took three AG’s a couple of months to decide to take this to a grand jury, took the Georgia bureau of investigation GBI took 2 days after their review to arrest. This is of course after public outrage. This is, of course, all my opinion based on the facts I have found so far, and my opinion may change as I find more facts. I based much of my opinion from what I have learned from the USCCA proving grounds, articles, and youtube videos, along with some of Massad Ayoob’s videos.

I am intrested to see others perspectives and what they believe. I am not going to debate opinions, so if thats what you want, you win. I am more curious about what would make this legal or is what I found enough to go from self defense to manslaughter or murder. I clearly don’t know what I would have done from either perspective because I was not there. I would like to have believed I would have just made the 911 call and left it at that if I was in the shooter’s perspective, or at the very most-followed him giving 911 updates until the police arrived on the scene.
From the victim’s perspective, seeing a man standing in the middle of the road with a shotgun (yelling at me) and another armed man in the truck with a car following behind me, I probably would have felt very trapped and unarmed. It would have definitely gone into fight or flight and I know I can’t outrun a bullet but I can’t say for sure what I would have done.
A last important note, the accused is a retired police office and investigator for the AGs office, which I believe may have caused the delay in arrest and not for public outrage may have gone on without an arrest even after they presented a one-sided event to the grand jury. No charges have been brought against the friend driving the car as of yet but the accused son is being charged as well.

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I didn’t find a moran clause, but in cases like this you would hope there was to save them the money. I love all the added training benefits from the USCCA , which is why I chose them, there are higher coverage option out there but not with the benefits they offer even to gold members. The basic knowledge I have gained from the USCCA has been a big learning experience and I can’t get enough of it. So the more money they save and use for training the more we all benefit.

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I have to agree, He had already called the cops and had no reason to cut him off on the road. The place where the accused believed a crime might have happened was way down the road and the victim had long since left, making any threat long over at least until he brought a gun into the situation and left the victim with very few options or places to go.

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The driver of the car was a friend of the shooter. The shooter and his son went ahead to stop the victim while the driver of the car followed him recording everything. Only the two in the truck have been charged so far. From everything I have read they were the aggressors in this case, and had already called 911 on the victim stating that he was trespassing in a half built home. There is a lot more to the story here but none of it makes the accused look any better. He was an retired cop, who later worked for the Attorney General and at one point was apart of an investigation against the victim that lead to the conviction of a crime years prior. If the victim had a weapon on him, this case probably would have been thrown out immediately based on the previous AG’s statements about it being a justified shooting even though this is anything but in my opinion anyway.

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