Responsibly Armed?

While stationed in North Dakota I signed up for my CCW license. The class was 4 hours long with two written tests required 100% score (legal and gun safety) Then on to the range where you fired from 7 yards 12 rounds 6 reload 6. then at 12 yards 6 and 6 shots, 24 rounds fired must have 18 hits on target your licensed! I retired and moved home to Florida again I signed up for my CCW license. The class was two (2) hours long (legal and safety) NO TEST ?? Then to the range if you have shot a gun before you only need to shoot one (1) shot and your licensed! For me this was fine, I completed the NRA classes as a youth, trained in the military, and took the classes required to be a Responsibly Armed Citizen. What really alarmed me was during the classroom instruction twice the instructor had to wake up individuals sleeping in the class!! These individuals are now licensed to carry!

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Unfortunately that is true…and nothing we can do.
My CCL class was also big surprise for me.
We spent over 2 hours (I should rather say wasted 2 hours) on basic bs because half of the class didn’t know what semi auto pistol was… :grimacing:
Range time / exam was a joke for me… This classes are made to obtain carry license no matter what.

My only hope is that I will never be involved in shooting where such “responsible gun owners” draw their firearms .

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Welcome to the Community @Gary110!!

I hear what you and @Jerzy are saying…however…despite these low standards or in many States no shooting qualification at all…millions of citizens successfully defend themselves with handguns each year often without any formal training with low or no collateral damage.

Yes we should promote individuals getting training and practicing, however we should (in my opinion) be cautious that we don’t become a bunch of “training elitists” looking down on anyone who has not received formal training or is coming from a State with low (no) CCW shooting requirements. It seems divisive.

That “non-trained” low income single mom pulling that revolver out of her handbag to defend herself against a rapist at 7ft is just as “righteous” in her carry as that multi-school trained “expert” who will never have to draw his weapon against a threat.

We should also be careful in the STATE setting high standards for CCW less they decide that the requirement needs to be the same as a SOCOM operator and places 90% of current concealed carriers out of eligibility.

Just a thought.

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Constitutional carry … your requirements are US citizenship and legally able to own a firearm… Period.

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I did my Conceal Carry class in Wisconsin where there is no shooting requirement. I am lucky that I could afford to do additional training on my own. I have since then taken additional class so that I could apply for FL and MN non resident permits and that class had a shooting requirement.

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@JamesR, I agree with you in 100%… that the reason I mentioned: “nothing we can do”. This is everybody’s right to bear the firearm and use it for defense… but still I do not feel confident…
There is no reason to discuss it here… As @2A-Patriot posted: “Constitutional carry […] Period.”.

All these make me think twice if I’m going to interfere with shooting other than self-defense. Don’t be a hero, don’t be a good guy… even if it seems to be selfish.

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So, how would you ‘fix’ this?

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@Fred_G… this is one of non-fixable things …

Unfortunately people think “we have rights so let’s use them”, and I’m fully OK with this… but the problem starts when these people use their rights irresponsibly or don’t realize they have to train / practice skills to use these rights.

It’s not with firearms only… simple driving rights: it is so simple to get driver’s license, but without proper skills the driver may become unaware killer. And what can we do? Nothing.

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While I agree with most of what you are saying. Driving is a privilege, not a right. It’s not listed in the Bill of Rights, as a reminder to the government.

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I became an instructor because of my experience in my CCW permit class. I spent four hours watching a guy rack his slide over and over again between cigarettes and jokes about Democrats. I was competent prior to the class but I always hope to learn something new, regardless of the level of training. I also watched a guy almost shoot his left hand, since our first drill was to draw and shoot a round at three yards, no we didn’t cover how to draw from concealment or how to draw period… That was when I exited the class.

Despite that experience, I still hesitate to say we should have some form of standardized training. Like others have said already, how far down does that rabbit whole go once politicians get involved…

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I don’t know if it would “fix” it but maybe help @Fred_G

Mentoring and “positive peer pressure” from within the community.

We all agree (I think) that everyone one should have the right to carry if they so choose (provided they’re allowed to own a gun). And it would be great if everyone that owned a gun upon purchasing that weapon took on that ownership with the same responsibility/mentality as having a kid and took it upon themselves to become better parents/gun owners. Proficiency was a matter of survival back when our Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution (shoot accurately or starve).

I think one of the ways we can help make this happen are offering the training resources that USCCA is offering not only to member but to anyone that registers (although membership definitely has it’s privileges). Volunteering for and offering free/low cost training opportunities to those that cannot afford it but are interested (similar to what Maj Toure from Black Guns Matters sets up). Continuing to encourage each other to train and develop in forums such as this and share other training resources that we learn about. For instance, I’ve offered free range time at the range I RSO at to any church members who conceal carry and want to get out and practice (we just need to coordinate so I can sign them in as a guest).

Yeah, we’ll still have those that are “bad parents” that refuse to take any additional training to improve themselves, but maybe we can make that a minority of our community and we can take the majority of our community by the hand and help lift there (and ours in the process) skill levels.

Again, just thinking out loud.

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Driving was just an example. Doesn’t matter privileges or rights. The point is to feel responsibility for the action.

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@JamesR :ok_hand:
Thx for your loud thinking !

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Should they even have to take a class to become licensed? Should they have to get a license? Doesn’t the Second Amendment guarantees our right to bear arms? Isn’t any license on that an infringement on our rights?

HOWEVER, I 100% believe people should learn and train, but that doesn’t mean a formal class that is dictated by the government. How many people fell asleep in HS and still graduated? Just because it’s mandated doesn’t mean you learn anything.

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I agree, everyone ‘should’ train and be proficient with their gun. But, the 2A is a right. Some people might own a shotgun to only defend their home, others may carry every day.

If we allow the government to require a class, what if they make the class hard to take, or make it too expensive for a person low on $ who wants a gun to protect themselves or their family?

Am I paranoid about the gubment? Maybe, but what happened to the Tea Party when the IRS would not grant them tax exempt status in 2015 or so?

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Do you want the Doctor who slept during class or the one who was paid attention cutting on you?? We all have a right to own a firearm, when we elect to conceal carry we have an added responsibility to know what the laws are and how to safely use the firearm.
Carrying a firearm for self-defense comes with a lot of responsibility.

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and… doing surgery is not a constitutionally protected right.

There is nothing in the constitution that says you can bear arms “but only if you pass a test, shoot a qual, and meet the moral and legal standards of a governmental regulatory agency.” It’s just “bear arms”. Period. THAT is the standard.

People worry that it’ll turn into something like the old west crossed with the movie Jackass. It just doesn’t. Missouri is a constitutional carry state, and we don’t have people randomly shooting each other over parking spots or over cutting in line. We don’t have people lined up to get into the ER because of negligent gun handling.

Even if we did… constitutionally protected right, complete with the words shall not be infringed.

That said, I’m an instructor. I became an instructor because I care about teaching people well, effectively, and with proper information and skills. There are instructors out there who either don’t care or think they’ve got all the skills they need, and that’s a crying shame. We as an industry TRY to keep it cleaned up but there will always be some who don’t care and are just there for their ego or the dollars. Consumers can help by Yelp!ing the heck out of the ones that suck, or complaining to whomever they are certified with. I know USCCA disciplines it’s own… if a teacher isn’t meeting the standard, they will work with them until they do or pull their cert. NRA can do the same. That’s as it should be. We as a community should support that, bringing any laggards up to the line as we can, or calling them out as needed. We should encourage people to train … as even a top-flight CCW class is a minuscule drop in the bucket of skill and training the act of carrying deserves.

And all that said, I’m still going with shall not be infringed and constitutional carry as the right answer.

Carrying is ABSOLUTELY a serious responsibility. But so is Voting, and I’m guessing most people have done far more careless harm by voting without being properly informed on what they’re voting on than they’ll ever do carrying a firearm.

Nobody is calling for certification and training and a license and passing tests before we allow people to vote.

If we’re going to treat the responsibility of carrying as if it should be infringed with tests and training, maybe we should do the same before we let people vote.

Hmmm… wait… NOPE. Constitutionally protected rights. People have those they day they become a citizen over the age of majority, and its the government that has to not infringe. Full stop.

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Amen Zee!!!

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Odd thing… during aviation school Memphis Tenn… I was listening so hard I started nodding out… the instructor got very upset… I told him ask me what you just said… he asked I responded with a word for word resonce… he threatened me even so… told him I would pass the course… when the test came I aced it 100%

I passed the course 2nd highest in class… would have been highest had I started doing that from the get go… notes did nothing for me… I just sat and listened really hard… and recorded what I heard…and gave it back when it was required…

Point being what we see is not always what is…

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Great point.