There are so many failings of law enforcement that its difficult to know which ones to trust… So I will do all that I can to be my own first responder for me and mine. I’m not anti-police-- they have a hard job, but I will ere on the side of safety.
1 Like
Cop should be jailed for murder. Qualified Immunity should be done away with. Cop was not competent.
Speaking about competency…
Let us know what you, as a reasonably person asked to do a welfare check would do differently, so we would be able to tell that all you did was done great… 
6 Likes
Maybe this? I know, it is not a welfare check, but this does show what can happen when the homeowner is armed and the police arrive to do their job. It is just that the story in this thread had a different outcome.
3 Likes
I know that you didn’t pose this question to me directly. But, let me offer this as someone who wore a badge for years.
What could and should have been done was for her to call for another unit if available. For both Officer and Citizen safety, she should have had another Officer there to be a good witness as well as to de-escalate the situation. If I had been her partner, I would have said “Let’s back down and out of here slowly and get a Supervisor out here”.
As soon as the homeowner presented a firearm, she should have begun her tactical retreat to outside of the home and called for backup. It was a welfare check, not a “man with a gun” or “shots fired” call.
In my opinion, this shooting didn’t have to happen.
Stay safe out there.
8 Likes
It actually doesn’t show a different actions once you are inside the house… but anyway, it is another example of “a case of considerable randomness in the universe” ( I called it earlier as “a series of unfortunate events”).
2 Likes
@Frank73 thx for the input.
Right now it is easy for us to tell what should be done, once we seen the whole scenario. I agree with your opinion but still can’t blame her for her actions. She did, what seemed to be the best option for her at that moment.
As I understood the video correctly, she requested backup unit, once she found out the guy was behind the door.
Regarding tactical retreat to outside - yes, I can agree with that. She decided to go around the corner to get cover. Perhaps at that moment she knew it was the best for her?
Bad day for both… bad luck for one.
4 Likes
That’s probably the difference here. You don’t have the experience in her profession that I do. Not to be offensive, but that is a fact.
You cannot blame her for her actions and I can and I do. The Man that she shot was in his home, where he had a right to be. I’ve witnessed more effort to de-escalate suicidal persons that what this Officer demonstrated.
This was a so-called welfare check. And in my opinion, her department should already have a protocol established to better handle these situations. After all, what prevents a neighbor with a beef against you from calling in a “welfare check” on you?
It’s been done before under the term “Swatting” where a disgruntled person makes a false report of an armed/barricaded person. Swat rolls on the address and kicks in the door. And voila! instant harassment.
Stay safe out there.
7 Likes
What do you think the consequences should be then?
Did she act according to the protocol, the way she was trained to do?
EDITED:
I haven’t heard if the man introduced himself.
LEO definitely did… several times.
I do not have any experience as LE but if somebody would advance me with handgun not saying who he was and what were his intentions I would defense myself.
I don’t care if he was in his house. She had the right to be there as well.
Very hard to make it right. From moral perspective - she can feel guilty. From legal perspective… I have no idea. I’m glad it’s not my job to decide about her future life.
2 Likes
perhaps the uninvited person should be dead instead of an innocent home owner… just making this comment for reasonable responses… I tend to agree with @Frank73, a LEO’s response than all of the armchair leos commenting.
This is not intended as an insult, but, there are those who will. The Cancel Culture is alive in the USCCA Community, too.
1 Like
That’s fair enough, but that’s on the department not the officer. Expecting an officer to independently implement a “better” policy is not reasonable. I don’t know how many law enforcement agencies have resources to commit multiple officers to a routine check with no alerting factors. Certainly none where I have lived or worked.
I’m not sure what “police magic” is supposed to prevent or safely resolve a close quarters advancing lethal threat after retreat is foreclosed. At some level, any attempt at protecting public safety under any circumstance will have some risk of going sideways.
I don’t agree that the words “uninvited” or “innocent” are necessarily accurate, but I have no objection to the general premise — it might also be considered a reasonable use of lethal force in self-defense if the resident had killed the officer.
It seemed to me that this was not a lightning stun forcible entry attack, and the occupant had a considerable period to untangle what was going on and allow a safe resolution — but whether it was still reasonable to perceive a lethal threat would be for the regular wheels of justice to grind out a conclusion. I’m not convinced a fair outcome is always produced, but I believe that a “no fault” outcome should be able to fall in either direction.
If Kenneth Walker had killed an officer during their home invasion, would that have been considered justified self-defense? I believe so from what I know of the circumstances, but I doubt it would have been without controversy.
2 Likes
Could you explain how a protocol for domestic welfare check can be improved.
Short of sending an explosive ordinance robot to do welfare checks (you can imagine the effect on the elderly and confused homeowner!), or abolishing welfare checks altogether, I don’t see how anything else could change the outcome.
2 Likes
My reply at post 65 would be my answer.
1 Like
So, her initiating backing down would have been a worse policy? I don’t follow? Any Supervisor worth his/her salt would want an Officer to back down and de-escalate in this given situation.
I already addressed “qualified immunity”. Her Department should eat this if she was trained to continue to advance alone against an armed person.
It’s very simple “Police Magic” actually. And the video does not show the homeowner “advancing”. It’s called back down, back off, call for back-up and wait for someone with more pay-grade than her. Instead, she decided to push the issue in my opinion. At timestamp 9:05, she is aware of the presence of a gun. She had an egress point, she should have take it and retreated. She stated “Sir, no one is in trouble”. Just before she shot him.
I’ll bet you donuts to dollars that if I gave her that option to back down and to do all over again, she would take it.
It was a “welfare check”. I’m sure his welfare is all but certain now.
3 Likes
She had her bodycam for a good witness. It is pure speculation that presence of a 2nd officer would calm down a confused elderly man, and not agitate him even more.
From the article, I gather she already was retreating, but got herself into a corner. This is hardly a crime.
2 Likes
A second Officer (partner) would have been more useful to back HER down and out of the corner she found herself in both physically and and morally. And in building entry, “getting yourself into a corner” is a tactical blunder. She entered a dwelling that she was not familiar with, she made that entry without a partner or back up.
Her tactics were very unsound.
Stay safe.
1 Like
She didn’t enter an active crime scene. It wasn’t a known drug den, the owner wasn’t known to be aggressive, and so on.
Do cops always need to work in pairs under this type of circumstances? This is an overkill, seems to me.
1 Like
I cannot “invite” you into my neighbors home. And if an officer chooses to go into my neighbor’s home at my invitation the home owner is still "innocent’.
1 Like
Then, a welfare check is never possible. Doesnt seem right.
1 Like
Have you ever conducted a building entry or conducted a room by room search? Can it be done alone? Maybe. Should it be done alone. No. Officers don’t always ride with partners. However, they do have radios and can and do request another Officer back them up. I’ll tell you this, I wouldn’t have climbed the stairs without backup. Ground floor sweep alone maybe. But, stairs and a hallway? I’d call it in.
I’m curious … how would you have felt if the homeowner had shot and killed this Officer? Would a different result have raised the question of tactics?
Stay safe.
2 Likes