No training for permits

Firearm Training
81

2-Body 1-Head will do very little other than greatly increase the likelihood you’ll be indicted and convicted. No credible SD trainer is teaching this for that very reason. See the threads where we’ve discussed head shots.

Competition greatly improves your accuracy, no doubt and helps to prepare you for multiple targets but it really doesn’t translate over to self defense beyond that.

I’ve been shot, stabbed, run over, blown up and spent the equivalent of several years in very high stress combat situations so I’m a lot like you, when I’m threatened, I just go stone cold and everything goes into slow motion for me.

As a civilian I’ve also been in multuple serious threat situations including one where i had to fire. Fortunately I’ve never had to shoot anyone in a civilian encounter but I have come very close. I hope I never get any closer.

Back to heads, unless you have no other shot or choice put your rounds center mass. Put your hand up against your chest, palm flat with the thumb closed against the rest of the hand. Run hour hand from the base of the neck to the bellybutton.

You put multiple rounds into a bad guy penetrating that zone using even decent self defense JHP’s and you will stop the attacker quickly.

Anytime you shoot for the head it complicates things greatly and prosecutors and juries will be much more inclined to think your intent was to kill rather than simply to stop the threat. From a more practical standpoint the head shot is the low percentage shot if you have a shot at any portion of the torso.

Remember, as self defenders we may only do that which is necessary to stop the threat.

3 Likes
82

Thanks so much for sharing your experience, expertise and wisdom. And the chart - which I copied.
I appreciate it a lot. And feel I will better prepared for it.

In kayaking I did a lot of the initial exploring in the East on Rivers & Creeks people said could not be done. The ignorance of my youth. Got beat to hell, drown, died once, met God, name it. The Upside - Don’t “fear” death much anymore like you said I go Stone Cold Focused when threatened.

My last trip - kayak 210 mi of the Grand Canyon, 10 days.
Think of an Ant in a Thimble in a Washing Machine :slight_smile:

I shot in a Combat Rifle match today. 3 guys were talking.
One pointed over “to me” and said to them - “If I am in a “Real Fight” I want
HIM with Me”.

Again thanks for sharing your expertise.

3 Likes
83

I don’t claim to be an expert but I do have a great deal of experience and have been both a very serious student and instructor going on 3 decades.

Even today I try to take at least two instructor level courses a year and spend probably somewhere around sixty or eighty hours every month studying outcomes of self defense cases.

1 Like
84

I had several discussions with WildRose - he is very knowledgeable and has some information on Civilian shootings that he follows.
Including some charts.

Better for you to look for our discussions see what you think.
I would screw it up.
In sum - most Civilian Shootings in Defense are at close range and involve only a few shots. Similar to the old FBI Rule of 3’s for self defense fights.
Inside 3 yds, 3 shots, 3 Seconds.
So the “Hit” rate is much higher than for Police.
Since Police often have to “take the fight” to the bad guys. Car chases etc
that involve shooting a lot and not many hits. Plus they tend to just Mag Dump and reload.

3 Likes
85

@DEFENDER @WildRose Yeah I got to read your conversation. It was very informative and it goes along with what I initially thought that police live fire situations are different than ccw civilians. We have more close encounter fights whereas police, as discussed in your conversation, have more arrive on scene at a distance and suppress fire fights. That was why I originally said we have a higher hit rate than police.

2 Likes
86

I agree.
The one case where we as civilians might have a high miss rate is if we have to take-on a mass shooter. That situation is not getting better, it is getting worse. “I” think directly related to the Anti-Depressant Drug epidemic.
Prescribed to patients to be taken at home.
Most ALL Mass Shooters are 16-26yo and on an Anti-Depressant.
And I think that is going to be happening more in the future.
Most all churches, around here anyway, now have Armed Security Teams - mostly comprised of Conceal Carry church members. Many of which shoot even less then Police. And with a Mass shooter it will probably not be “up close” like normal Self Defense. So I wonder how that will “play out”.
Probably going to take some gun skills to take them out w/o a lot of collateral damage.
I have had the opportunity to observe police qualifying many times. They shoot reasonably well in static qualifying.
But from my information - that is about all the “practice” they do. About 100-200 rds/yr. I know many competition shooters who shoot 500-1k + rds/'mo"! Still - in a “Real Fight” I would choose Police to be with me.
I would have more faith they would not loose their nerve when it hits the fan. Which I view just-as if not more important than gun handling.
“Mind Set” ie Show No Fear.
Having body armor “on” also makes it easier to “stand your ground” or take the fight to the threat. Which virtually all Police have now.

1 Like
87

Be careful about blaming the drugs. Most mass shooters and those who commit spree killings have long histories of serious mental health issue and crime rates aver very high among the mentally ill whether they are in treatment or not.

The more likely cause is the disease, not the treatment.

1 Like
88

With the new laws that have come into effect anyone especially a family member you may have made madder than hell, can call in on you and say your nuts, don’t or shouldn’t have a gun and make up all kinds of lies. I strongly recommend getting to the range and with as many friends as possible so your friends, range owners, all that apply can help if you’re ever put in that situation or a shooting situation as well.

2 Likes
89

Again thanks for your insights.
I was in a hurry and mis-spoke when I said 2-Body, 1-Head.
Body - High Center mass. As a standard face to face approach.
(Given the term “standard” in Defensive Shooting is something of an
oxymoron)

I actually practice and advocate 2 -Body(High Center Mass), 1,2 - Hip(as secondary area) in case 2 Body are ineffective (say body armor like some mass shooters are now wearing).
My theory:
The hip area is a somewhat larger and less mobile target then the head.?
Most standard Class III body armor stops at the waist.
& Take out a hip and he “will” go down?

Your thoughts on this?

2 Likes
90

Break the pelvic girdle and they cease to be mobile. Aim for the area between the bottom of the zipper and the belly button.

basically if you stick to that same 4-6" width of your closed hand from the bottom of the zipper to the eyeballs any hit has a very high likelihood of ending the fight.

All of your most vital organs and blood vessels are located along that line as is the spine and pelvic girdle.

Keep it below the chin and in that same line and not only will you probably end the fight with no more than one or two shots the court fight that follows is likely to go your way as well.

Avoid head shots whenever you can because they are the low percentage shot, very difficult to make under stress and all they will do is complicate matters once the fight is over.

If it’s life or death and you have no other choice and can articulate it to the satisfaction of the prosecutor, judge, or if it goes that far a jury and all the other elements of lawful self defense are present you’ll probably still be ok but once you get in front of a jury all bets are off and you can still end up spending the rest of your life behind bars just based on nothing more than the prejudices of the jurors.

3 Likes
91

Thanks.
If I am ever “Forced to” the Bad Guy is going to really have to “Earn It”.
“Direct threat of Death or Great Bodily Harm” to me or others.
Attacker - Opportunity, Intent, Ability, etc.

While I try to Always Expect a fight may “Come to me”.
I am NOT “Looking for a Fight”.
I am Looking to recognize ahead and Avoid one if possible.

But I have been tested and tempted before:
Closest “I” have come, so far, was:
I was protecting a dozen or so women and children behind me.
At a campsite in the Mountains. Dusky dark. Kayak trip. “Many” Yrs ago.
5 Rednecks, all with rifles, approached talking about wanting the women. Drew my gun on them, about 45ft away, pointed square at them, Strong solid square extended shooting position, said (in Police Command Voice) STOP RIGHT THERE OR I “WILL” SHOOT YOU.
It worked, thank God, they stopped cold, turned and left.
ps I only had a 5 shot snub 38 borrowed from one of the women:):slight_smile:
And No Reload.
Like we agree - Stone Cold - no matter what.

"I have been “Threatened” 3 other times since then, twice shot-at, but just showing my gun was enough to make them leave in a hurry.
Shot-at once from a Ridge-Top - I don’t count that one.

Have not Had to actually shoot anyone either - Thank God.

NOW: “Concealed” Carry:
Always carry “Concealed” - Everywhere.
S&W9C - 9mm. Hornaday Critical Defense, 115gr.
I try to always be on-body-armed since then, w/2 reloads - everywhere.
12 in the Mag. 1 “in the Pipe”.
2 Reload Pouches off-side, 17 ea. since my Full Size Mags also fit the 9C.
In case of Church etc Mass Shooter, Church security detail, etc.
I Don’t want to face a Rifle attack with only 1 mag.
(1st I will be looking for “Cover”)
Or other mass shooter wherever I might get caught.

I Carry S&W9C - 9mm. Hornaday Critical Defense.
Shoot S&W9 & 9C in Competition.

In “Public” I operate by the escalating - Color Code Awareness system.
Tueller Drill reaction time distance drill etc. Knowing I might have to Fight 1st just to “get to” my gun. Have serious Hand-to-Hand training and experience also.

Your Thoughts? Recommendations. ? Changes?

2 Likes
92

I’d say you’re pretty well organized there.

On the Tueller drill keep in mind that in most self defense situations you’re already going to be at arm’s length with any potential bad guy before you realize you’re in a defensive situation.

Also remember that in most cases you’re not going to have a lawful use of force, much less deadly force at that distance unless someone is approaching you in a threatening manner, making threats, displaying a weapon etc.

The drill itself has very little relevance to real life lawful self defense situations which is why I don’t put much emphasis on it.

Now, again you need to be aware of the laws in your state or states you visit but in general… …

If you recognize an approaching threat and can do so lawfully go ahead and at least get a grip on your firearm and be ready to draw if things escalate.

Practice techniques such as blading that allow you to either a) conceal your draw, or move to draw, or that b) help you protect your draw.

The reason I carry a knife on my weak side is so I can quickly access it and use it to block a potential charging assailant or one that is close enough to interfere with my draw or block it as well as to stop someone from attempting a gun snatch.

One of the secondary reasons I’m not a fan of appendix carry is that there’s really no way to conceal or protect your draw or movement to prepare to draw from a bad guy that’s in front of you. Another is that if you get into a scuffle for your gun when attempting to draw the muzzle is aimed at some of your very most important parts and puts you at serious risk in trying to draw from a clutch.

If someone is within arm’s reach remember it’s not “your gun” it’s “our gun” and whoever manages to dominate the first 2 seconds of our encounter is likely to end up with the gun.

In general I’d say people need to focus a whole lot more on avoiding getting into a situation where you may have to use the gun, and when it cannot be avoided work more on ways to conceal your draw and/or protect it.

You also need to know your state laws/where you are with reference to using the threat of deadly force to deescalate a conflict remembering that in order to have a lawful claim of self defense at all you must be an innocent party.

If you get into a shouting match that then escalates and you are in a public space unless and until you make every reasonable attempt to physically leave the conflict or make your intentions to surrender/comply/or quit you have no lawful claim of self defense so again, best to avoid the whole situation from the start.

Aside from understanding the law and getting them into the right mindset as defenders I think the most valuable things I teach students based on their own feedback is how to protect their draw/move to draw and conceal the draw and as a rule I see very little discussion of it or teaching of same.

3 Likes
93

yep, that’s one of the scariest things about red flag laws, they can very easily be abused.

at least twice a week, sometimes more :grin:
and I take people with me at least once a week. Plus I’m a USCCA instructor. That’s pretty good credentials, not sure its possible to do a lot better than that.

2 Likes
94

I wanted to correct a mistake I made in a previous post(2 actually).
Several days ago.
I was in a hurry and it came out wrong - I just “threw something in”.
Sorry.

Don’t remember exactly what I said but something like the below.
Basically - In a hurry - I said 2 things in-artfully at best, but more like incorrectly.

1 - If you are going to be shooting in a crowded area you need some training to do that without a lot of collateral damage. And I still advocate that. Although I do Not think training should be “Required” just to own or use a gun. As much as I do advocate it.

Anyone should have the “Right” to protect/Defend “Themselves” wherever they are. With whatever is needed.

2 - “Otherwise you should only shoot “in your home” if needed.”
Correction - No I do not believe that, at all.
Since This actually implies you should not be Defending yourself anywhere outside the home.

Which I do “Not” support. We should have the Right to Defend “Our-self” anywhere we may be.

What I Do think:
While shooting outside the home at-times should involve much more care
and training needed. I do believe we All have a God-Given Right to Defend ourselves wherever we may be. With whatever it takes.(Limiting collateral damage of course).
ie the reason for the - 2nd A .
Plus as a check on Govt Overreach. ie “Power of the People”.

I “do” advocate - If one plans to Carry in Public that they get training in shooting in Public. Including when “Not to shoot”. Which may be more important for the “Carrier”, and others than “when to actually shoot”.

But it not be “Required”.

On Background Cks

I do think the Background Ck system for Purchase of a gun is a good thing.
To weed-out those who should not own a gun.
ie They have essentially given up that Right - Felons, Domestic Abusers, Dope Heads, etc.

And - in todays environment of mass shooters - most with mental problems, “many driven by drug use” , often prescribed Anti-depressants.
That perhaps a “Mental” Background ck, of some kind, should be included -
it would be difficult but seem do-able. Likely have to modify HIPPA laws.

But the Drug issue is getting worse, not better. And impacting “our” right to
defend ourselves.

I think the 2A is relatively secure - for now - next few/several ys.
The Anti-gunners realize the majority of Americans actually Support the 2A.
So “that” is an uphill battle for “them”.

BUT
If we do not address those issues above we will loose many of our 2A Rights by the “Back Door” Method - ie at the Fed/State/County/Municipal level.
ie Chinese proverb: “Death by a thousand cuts”.

Which the Dems are pushing hard now at all levels.
Fed level - New laws like Banning AR’s - again, etc., more.
State, County, City - Ordinances - Gun Free Zones, etal.
Business, Insurance,…etal - Canceling Gun Dealer Ins, etc.
Law Suites on Mfgrs for Death caused by “Their, Sold” guns.
Boycotts, other Business threat strategies.

Gun Free Zones - “I” call them “Gun Free Killing Zones”.
I propose my own Gun Free Zone Law:
“If” you declare your business a “Gun Free Zone” you MUST provide
Entrance Metal Detectors and Adequate Certified Armed Security.
Like Govt Buildings do.

See how they like “that” “Cost-Benefit” Ratio.

DEFENDER

3 Likes
95

That sounds just right to me. :100:

2 Likes