Yes but there are ppl out there buying guns right now that have never shot a gun,buying and allowed to carry now. Do you think they should take at least 1 class on self defense and practice or it’s ok if they just buy it carry it around and use it when they feel “scared”?
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I’m glad I was able to touch on a subject that everyone could discuss with different views.
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I’m reminded of the many instances in which a child has had to access a family gun and successfully defended themselves, and others in the home when they’ve had very little or no training.
My preference is that everyone not only get training but that they continue it for life, honing existing skills and learning/perfecting new skills.
In truth though 75-90% of successful self defense with a firearm is all about what happens between your ears, not what you do with the gun.
We have 2.5 million lawful defensive gun uses in the US each year with the firearm never being fired in over 90% of those encounters.
The argument here is rights over regulation. Either we have an inherent right to self defense and protected right to keep and bear arms or we don’t.
To honor the meaning and intent of the 2nd Amendment there should be no restrictions on anyone who can lawfully possess a firearm carrying it in public.
What they can then lawfully do with that firearm as well as their responsibility for what happens when they do is already heavily regulated and restricted by law and should they use it unlawfully they will suffer the consequences.
I’m not even sure that I’d oppose some basic demonstration of competency requirement in constitutional carry states for those carrying for self defense but I’m really hesitant to get behind any sort of mandatory training because of how readily such requirements can be abused by those that oppose lawful carry and self defense.
I could probably get behind such a requirement if it had to be completed within 2 years of purchase which would require some sort of process for people to at least register themselves as lawful carriers when they make that initial purchase.
Again though, I’m hesitant to agree to even what most of us would agree are entirely reasonable requirements because once you let the camel’s toe in the tent the rest will soon follow.
“Any guesses on the “Miss Rate” for untrained, CCW’s shooting, in a real fight ?
I would guess the “miss rate” would be about 50-60%”
My guess - the “Miss Rate” would be worse than that of Trained Police Officers.
Which is known to be about 80% in Real Fights.
Due to the high Fear Factor, seems they tend to shoot too fast to control it.
Understandable.
Being “Shot AT” does things to your mind which controls the body.
Damn sure nothing like Range Shooting.
One of those things you have to experience to get a real feel for.
Its a visceral thing.
The only thing I can find regarding “miss rate” is an average of 3.25 rounds fired in a self defense incident. It does not specify between misses or hits that didn’t disable and also includes rounds fired by the suspect. Not a great example pool.
Side note: I’m finding it harder and harder to look up gun articles without either the exact name of the article or the outlet producing the content. Instead I’m getting a lot of very antigun pages.
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There has been a lot of censorship going on with YouTube, google, Facebook and a lot of the other main social platforms recently. If you haven’t been kept up to date with it you can search the videos covering it on lowder with crowder since he was one of the main people censored.
My thought is same for the fear factor, but to me that is balanced by the premise that, generally speaking, ccw permit holders are usually closer to the assailant while fighting back then police are when police are responding to the scene. So there is more chances the ccw rounds will connect to the assailant such as in a bedroom or home invasion, or in a convenience store when they are a customer in line when the assailant comes in to rob the place.
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@ShaneB, I do not have all the types of training @DEFENDER lists as what should be mandatory. While I continue to expand my training, according to his list, I’m not qualified.
I’m a HUGE fan of training. I do it, both as student and teacher. I promote it to my students, friends and acquaintances.
And, as much as I believe in its utility, wisdom and effectiveness, it is not and should not be a gating factor for exercise of ones rights.
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@WildRose , my only question is how many of the people you say are concealed carry people are legally carrying concealed. This applies to having a weapon in states where you do not need a permit to carry legally concealed. How many are not old enough, are using illegally obtained firearms, or have preexisting charges that prohibit them from having a firearm?
There are so many that I do not consider as CCW people. Just start with the Las Vegas shooter, the Aurora, Colorado shooter or Columbine. They were simply (future) criminals on a mission. Not CCW people who suddenly decide to shoot up a place as you infer.
Agreed. I feel the same about people being unrestricted in exercising this freedom. Though I would definitely strive to push for the education and training. If it became the norm again for people to carry I think the education side would also become more utilized once people see the benefits of it.
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MoonWolf
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11h
MoonWolf
Any guesses on the “Miss Rate” for untrained, CCW’s shooting, in a real fight ?
I would guess the “miss rate” would be about 50-60%
Your guess probably good as mine.
I do have a correction on Police “Hit rate” - it is 25% vs 20% - as I recall on data I have seen. So 75% miss Not 80%.
So 6 of 8 shots miss. 2 of 8 hit - on average. Have to remember most of the time it is a very dynamic situation, often on the move, obstructions, cars, low light to dark, etc and often they are “taking fire” and - as you say - at a distance “we”/civies might not have to shoot at - moving car-chase shoot-outs come to mind. Still they are usually way better trained than “most” CCW’s I know.
I don’t keep records of this stuff and have to try to remember these things.
But even at say your 50% for CCW - 4 misses of 8 shots for CCW. That is a lot of rounds going “somewhere” looking for a target. God Bless the LEO’s I don’t want to be in their position. And have had to re-consider if I would actually shoot to stop an active shooter shooting in a public place full of people. It would have to be very close and absolute last resort and pay serious attention to what is “Beyond”. And I practice/train for it all the time - I shoot 500+ rds/month, combat type dynamic practice with non-threats mingled in, + IDPA, + more for several yrs now. Best “I” can do is practice/train all I can and hope I never “have to” for real. I “have” had to Draw-Down on some bad-guys - they(5) decided to leave - Best outcome. Got Shot-at 3 other times - I did not have a gun then. So I have probably used up “My” 50% (:
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Glad you made it through your showdown alive man. And yeah it’s not a situation i would want to be in either. I’ve thought about that often if I had to encounter an active shooter in a crowded area, I would be hesitant to shoot until I had a crystal clear background knowing there were no bystanders I could hit because if I accidentally hit that bystander it would gnaw at my conscience the rest of my life. Though stopping the threat before s/he has taken any more lives would balance that of course.
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There’s not really any indication that any of those shooters were carrying at all, much less concealed prior to determining to commit their crimes or that if they were they were doing so lawfully, at least not that I know of.
It’s certainly highly unlikely any of the would have been carrying openly either prior to or once they had made that decision.
None of them are what we’d consider to be a part of the “community”.
You cannot apply police hit/miss rates to the civilian population with any accuracy at all. Police engage in gun fights with armed suspects where it’s not uncommon for them to dump a whole mag or multiple mags. They also frequently shoot to suppress a target while moving or to cover movement of a partner.
When police engage they do so with the intent that the suspect will end up in cuffs or the morgue, we engage only to stop the immediate threat. We cannot keep shooting at or pursue a fleeing suspect and keep shooting at them until we have them in cuffs or on a stretcher.
The average cop will fire over 12 rounds when they do fire, the average civilian 2-3 rounds.
Police have qualified immunity in a fight. As long as they follow department policy and their training they are immune to civil and criminal liability whereas each round we fire we are fully accountable for.
It’s an apples to hammers comparison.
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Yes there are regulations on some of our rights, but they are primarily age restraints that legislate when our rights are recognized.
There are no rights in the Constitution that require a person go through training and if there were they would be deemed unconstitutional just as the “poll tax” from the Jim Crow era was deemed.
That’s the reason we have such a debate now over requiring ID for voting because it’s argued that obtaining the ID amounts to an infringement upon that right, even if the government provides at no cost, and would dissuade people from exercising it.
So requiring training to exercising your 2nd Amendment rights is definitely an infringement in that it deters people from exercising it (e.g. hassle to go through) and establishes an economic qualifier prior to being able to exercise it (i.e. poll tax).
So I’m definitely not in favor of legislatively requiring training.
Having said that, I think people should train and train often and it would be great if we could get organizations like the NRA, GOA, etc to sponsor regular no/low cost training across the country so that citizens could get that training regularly and perhaps decrease some of the barriers people see to getting that training (geography, cost etc.).
Similar to the program the NRA has with the BSA in regard to youth program rifle loans and ammo grants.
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Thanks for your insight.
I agree.
Several yrs ago I saw a car chase case, Philli I think or Baltimore.
A white BMW I think.
The car had something like 150 holes in it.
The driver maybe 10-12.
The family, of course, sued on something like Overkill,
ie Trigger Happy Cops. Don’t know the outcome of that.
I suspect they lost.
Do you have any thoughts or data ( Hit v Miss Rate) on Civilian Defensive shootings?
I suspect it will be at least some better than Police but still Miss more than Hit but don’t know how much.
I suspect it will be better than Police but by how much?
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I’ve done an awful lot of looking and never found any good stats.
Of the cases I’ve reviewed the hit rate is extremely high, approaching 85%.
This is perfectly logical though when you look at the average self defense shooting. They tend to occur at or inside of 12’ and the goal isn’t to subdue a perp, it’s simply to save your own life or that of someone else.
The hit rate tends to go down actually with more training. The more training you get the more likely you are to shoot in bursts and keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.
The untrained shooter is more likely to shoot the bad guy in the face and do it at much closer distances than we would because they tend to focus on the eyes instead of the hands and more often that not a shot to the face is going to have substantially more effect than one to the torso.
I’m sure someone out there has done a good job of compiling data but I have yet to come across it.
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Have you shot any competition: IDPA(aka Combat Pistol), Combat Rifle, Multi-gun, etc?
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I have but then competition has littler or no actual relation to common self defense scenarios.
Back in the 90’s I trained two top ten state competitors in the then USPPSA.
The average self defense shooting occurs at 12’ or less, involves just 1-3, (one defender, two attackers) people, with an average of only 2.2rds being fired. It’s not a run and gun event under heavily controlled conditions.’
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This is the best reference I have come across today but I’ll keep looking. They don’t give a hit/miss breakdown.
http://gunssavelives.net/self-defense/analysis-of-five-years-of-armed-encounters-with-data-tables/
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1st I realize every situation will be different but - to me - practicing the fundamentals - Threat recognition, Draw, Present(maybe at retention position), Point shooting and Aimed Fire skills are important.
I am thinking(Hoping anyway) with my Extensive Competition experience I will be “better prepared” - mainly for the Mass Shooter Situation.
So, to start, I have been shot-at a few times(4) by Rednecks in the Mtns
so I know what it is like. Fortunately they all missed.
Once sitting in my kayak and the shooter from a near-by ridge-top with a rifle. “Really” scary. ie Frog on a Log feeling.
I am going to agree on your data, for “Typical” Defensive encounters, similar to the FBI rule of 3’s.
3 yds, 3 shots, 3 seconds
And 2-3 people - YOU and 1-2 attackers.
For “me”, for that I am thinking:
Quick Draw and point shoot, 3 rds ea, to start.
2 body, 1 head - ea., I can do that in 3 sec.
The fly in the ointment/anomaly in todays world is the chance of facing a Mass Shooter.
Being a key member of our “Armed” Church Security Detail.
I have to be ready at any time to force an engagement ie Police Mode.
So - “I” see more benefit in “Defensive” Type Competition shooting than you do for “me” anyway.
And perhaps for the average CCW holder with the increase of mass shooters we are having.
Back to the “typical personal attack”:
Also - One of the critical things you need to do in a “Typical” Defensive Encounter is Get your gun in the fight “Quick” - ie quick-draw and present -ie the Fundamentals.
Which I have pretty much “down pat” - due to extensive competition training. ie the old saying “Practice until you cannot get it wrong”.
Realizing There is a decent chance you may have to 1st Fight to even get-to your gun. And on target - Typically not extended, not sighted fire but Point shooting position. Either high or low.
Shooting a lot of competition helps with all this.
My “Draw” now is really fast and solid.
And well-practiced at shooting “from Retention”.
For the Mass Shooter Situation
I am likely not going to be close - to start with.
So this is more likely to be at greater distance than “contact”.
I am more likely going to need to Draw to the high extended & sighted position.
Since there will likely be a lot of non-threats around - and everyone moving,
better accuracy will likely be needed.
With my extensive competition training I am more likely to be more accurate
at distance. And more cautious of Non-threat shoot-thrus etc.
ps I have shot a Combat Pistol, Combat Rife or Multigun competition
most every Sat for the last 7yrs. I don’t win much since I am old 70+ but I
can draw quick and shoot solid from any position and either hand.
Even upside-down. And any other position you can name.
And clear malfunctions in a flash.
ps - On “Mindset” (Which I think is an important factor in Defensive shooting)- I don’t scare easy. Hardly at all actually.
I have faced death so many times kayaking - not much scares me now.
When attacked - I, right then, go into counter-attack mode.
Your thoughts?
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