MRDS (micro red dot sights)

So, I recently took the plunge and got my CZ milled to accept a Trijicon RMR2 (3.5 MOA dot).

After a few months of research and namely watching a lot of Sage Dynamics videos and reading their white paper (http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/7dc128_50a7c57f2d284e53bca8584a7f7925b1.pdf) I decided that the red dot was right for me, and the goals I have for training.

One of the main pros for me is that there is really only one focal plane when using a red dot sight. You just look at the target with both eyes open and the dot finds what you are looking at. This plays into thousands of years of human evolution. As mentioned in the sage dynamics white paper we have been fighting with rocks for a very long time, longer than guns. We are predisposed to look at the threat before throwing the rock, not look at the rock while you throw. A MRDS plays into that evolution by allowing you to look at your target instinctively rather than focus on your firearm.

Another huge plus for me is that by staring at my target, I find the dot without much effort. I am getting better hits and doing it more consistently. My eyes are not getting better.

One huge drawback is it was not cheap, and you need to get a quality red dot. It also takes a lot of rounds to get proficient. I put 500 through it in the last week, and it is learning how to shoot all over again.

One other great/ ego smashing thing is that a MRDS will teach you exactly what you are doing wrong by exaggerating your mistakes.

Has anyone else thought about getting their slide milled for a MRDS? Has anyone ever shot with a MRDS, if so what did you think, and why?

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Just got a Sig Emperor Scorpion with a Trijicon RMR. I’ve about 100 rounds through it. So far, my head still does a dance to align the sights–it’s not natural. I love the idea, and am going to practice to get better with it.
It’s super accurate–BUT. The dot is huge. Close targets, no problem. Far away targets are hidden by the dot. I can’t define ‘far away’ right now–but I certainly couldn’t hunt with this. All in all, more practice and range time will determine the ultimate utility of this for me personally. I’m hoping it becomes second nature to use.

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I put about 500 rounds down range with my FN FNX Tactical Valentine’s weekend. With a factory red dot. I bought the gun specifically, due to being right eye dominant. I did horribly. I was always chasing the dot. Then when I did find it it was shaky.

My wife picked it up though and put a magazine down range fairly quick and shot the tightest grouping I’ve seen her shoot.

I was using full strength self defense rounds as I tend to rotate all my preloaded up ammo and previous years ammo up.

I spent alot of time on point shooting my EDC, and made some really great strides there. But the red dot got me frustrated.

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@Aaron25 and @Zavier_D I was having the same issues trying to find the dot as well then I realized that I was naturally trying to look through my BUIS and that was causing my issues.

Is your dot a 6.5 MOA, Aaron? I think you will not get the problems with losing your dot with ambient light changes and shaking wont effect you as bad with the larger dot, so there is a good trade off there.

Well that was the aggravating part for me. I spent 2 hours plus on working on my stroke and point shooting. My best grouping of the day was 4.8 seconds from draw to 10 rounds center mass that was about the size of an index card. I really haven’t had a good long range day in a while, I’ve been fighting some health issues. Plus I changed my holster position and needed to requalify for being allowed to shoot from a draw. So I took 5 of my .45 with me.

But while trying to shoot that red dot I might have put 50% where I wanted. I am really worried about training bad habits in trying to make up for my inadequacy with the red dot. John Lovell over at WPS had a really good training video on over coming eye dominance, and it worked. But it felt really weird.

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First off, James that is a bad looking P-07 man! And I agree it’s an excellent but expensive training tool.

I’ve taken the plunge the last few months. Still trying to decide if I want to carry everyday with one but I’m leaning toward that direction. Right now I have a Sig Romeo 1 on an X-Carry and it’s a lot of fun. If I do decide to go red dot EDC it’ll be an RMR or a Holosun 508T on an FN 509. The Romeo just isn’t up for daily use durability wise, nor do I plan to go away from my 509 for EDC.

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How do you like the cowitness with the rear notch in front of the RMR?

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I have the Walther PPS M2 RMSC, which is a good deal if you think about the cost of the milling and the site alone. I didn’t have as much trouble getting used to it as I expected, I still look for the front site and the red dot is there. I helps out with the short site plane on small CCW pistols and it is an advantage for my aging eyes.

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It’s why I went to a Leopold Delta Point. Longer range lines at the top of the 7.5 MOA triangle and the short range stuff is at the center of the triangle. Works well for me. I was taught to bring the gun up to my eye and not bring my eye down to the gun, so I don’t feel like I’m adjusting much for its use. Only issue was loosing the triangle bringing up from a draw after I first got it. I took a lot of practice so the dot (triangle) is presented right away. This is on a Glock 34 I use for USPSA competitions and steel challenge events. First couple of matches were pretty ugly.

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I did not really cowitness the dot, it is more of a lower 1/3 cowitness. It is nice though. I believe that it does not make me want to go straight to my irons, so it pretty much forces me to look for the dot first. I think that is one big issue with going to a MRDS, remembering that your irons are now your back up. Which is a very foreign concept.

I agree with you that an RMR, Leopold DPP (if you can handle a larger optic) or the Holosun would be a better choice for an optic on a carry gun. The data sets that have been gathered really do show they are more reliable and fit for duty use and concealed carry.

I am unfamiliar with the Holosun 508. I have looked into the 507. What is different about the 508? Why would that optic be better for you, or what about it jumps out to you as a good choice? What was the biggest learning curve for you going to a MRDS? I am not trying to question you, I just want to keep a great and thoughtful dialogue going. Thanks for the compliment on the P07! I am more emotionally attached to that gun than I should be.

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I am glad you stuck with it! Thanks for giving great reasons why the DPP is a great option, and welcome to the community!

What gun did you mount it on (if you would like to share), did you have the slide milled, and are you running BUIS with it being a competition gun?

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I think the Wather PPS is a fantastic handgun that offers a lot of bang for your buck. You really do get a lot of gun for the price. Milling is expensive, but I really wanted the irons in front of the MRDS. What MRDS did you end up getting and why did you choose it? I have heard that MRDS are great options for people with aging eyes. Did you notice that you are able to extend your range and tighten your groups? Or is it just better in the sense that you can pick up the dot easier than picking up irons?

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Walther offers the whole thing as a package, the gun the milling, and the Shield RMSc mounted to the gun. Since it was my first red dot the “package” deal gave me confidence I was avoiding any surprises (especially with the slide milling).

Getting on target quicker and getting back on target quicker are the advantages I notice most. Since the sites are co-witnessed I tend to see the sites and the dot for the first shot, on the follow up shots I seem to track the dot more than the front site. I practice at 25 yards or less for all my CCW hand guns, so the groups are pretty much the same across all of them. When I do ‘misfire’ drills I can rack the slide faster using the red dot than grabbing a regular slide. So far no issues with lens scratching, or powder etching. I have drawn it from concealed and fired in temps as low as -4 without ‘fogging’, but I did put Rain-X on my lens so maybe that helped.

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Glock 34 with a factory MOS. Had an issue shearing off a mounting screw into the slide after about 2000 rounds through this pistol. One day my groups got larger and strayed to the right. I found the optic mount into the slide was loose and after taking of the optic, I discovered the sheared screw. M3 screws are tiny and getting it out was like performing micro surgery. I’m glad I had a drill press. The pictures attached are the slide with the sheared screw and removed screw in a smallest screw extractor I could find.

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James, thank you for starting this thread topic, and to all who have responded. It is of particular interest to me since recently acquiring a Springfield Hellcat OSP and equipping it with a Shield SMSc red dot optic.

My son’s police department made the switch from .40 to 9mm Glocks and the Officers were given the approval to use rear slide mounted optics. He ended up going with a Gen 4 Glock 19 and I bought him a Trijicon RMR for a Christmas present. He’s been using that setup for over a year now and admits that it took him several range qualifications and extra practice on his own to get used to the change, but now he likes it better.

I’m recovering from recent spinal fusion surgery and the implanting of a pain pump, so no range time until I can stand on my feet longer. While I’m waiting and extremely bored, tinkering with guns and buying a few new ones keeps me occupied.

Looking forward to watching this thread and learning more! :+1:

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I hope your recovery time is quick! It took me an additional 400 rounds this week to get to the point where I am starting to see the results I want to see.

Have you been researching drills to practice with your new MRDS? If so, what have you found? Why did you make the switch to a MRDS?

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James, I have not done anything with the Hellcat OSP yet except get it outfitted the way I wanted it set up.

This last back surgery was #19 since a motorcycle-deer accident and the recovery is going a lot slower with more problems than anticipated. With the exception of buying and tinkering, gun stuff is on hold fir a while. Right now I can’t stand on my feet longer than 5 minutes without pain so severe, I can’t even find the right words.

My Son went with this type of system on his duty weapon, I thought I would try it to see how I liked it… but shooting and range time is on hold for the foreseeable future. :cry:

Glad you are getting yours dialed in and liking it, that gives me something to look forward to! :+1:

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I feel like an idiot. Now I understand what I was messing up.

Can you please explain what you are messing up on?

I was lini g up my iron sights and then adjusting until the dot was centered in the reticle.