Illegal Immigrants & The Second Amendment

https://www.courthousenews.com/first-circuit-takes-aim-in-showdown-over-migrants-second-amendment-rights/

First Circuit takes aim in showdown over migrants’ Second Amendment rights

When the Trump administration’s anti-immigrant stance conflicted with its pro-gun stance, it chose the former — though judges didn’t indicate if the argument carried the day.

BOSTON (CN) — In a mashup of left- and right-wing hot-button priorities, the First Circuit heard oral arguments on Wednesday over whether the Second Amendment protects the right of people in the country illegally to own guns.

A three-judge panel didn’t tip its hand, although it seemed somewhat skeptical of the Trump administration’s position that the government can completely disarm people without legal status.

Alberto Rebollar Osorio was a Mexican citizen who had been living in the U.S. illegally for 11 years when he was taken into custody during a Maine traffic stop. Because he had a gun in his car, he was charged with violating a federal gun-control law — passed in 1968 during a wave of assassinations and riots — that prohibited immigrants like him from possessing a firearm.

A federal judge declared that the law violated the Second Amendment, holding that the amendment covered migrants and that the law was inconsistent with the country’s historical tradition of firearms regulation. But the Justice Department appealed, putting the Trump administration in the unusual position of advocating for limits on gun rights.

The government claims in its briefs that the amendment only protects law-abiding citizens, not migrants, but the panel immediately told its lawyer, Brian Kleinbord, not to waste his time arguing this point. The judges wanted to focus instead on whether the 1968 law was consistent with colonial-era traditions of gun regulation, which the Supreme Court has said is necessary to pass Second Amendment muster.

Osorio’s lawyer, Jamesa Drake of Auburn, Maine, told the court that there’s no such tradition because the concept of “illegal immigration” didn’t even exist in the U.S. until 1875.

But “that works against you,” replied U.S. Circuit Judge William Kayatta, because it means that the Founders simply didn’t consider the issue and therefore the court has to look for the closest colonial-era analogy.

Kleinbord suggested that 18th-century British law denied guns to people who weren’t subjects of the king, which he said was analogous to being a U.S. citizen, and he pointed to a number of early U.S. statutes that categorically denied gun ownership to groups of people who were suspected of being disloyal, including Blacks, Native Americans and Catholics, as well as British loyalists who refused to swear an oath of allegiance to the new country.

Drake said these were poor analogies because “the purpose of this law was public safety,” and the laws disarming Blacks and other groups were designed to subjugate them politically. She said loyalty oaths were a poor analogy because they applied to people who had revolted against the government.

“This defendant has never taken up arms against the country. He has demonstrated allegiance by helping his neighbors,” Drake said.

U.S. Circuit Chief Judge David Barron said, “I can see reasons why unlawful status could give rise to concerns about gun ownership,” but he was “struggling” with the idea that it’s because of a lack of loyalty. “I’m not quite grasping that point,” he said.

Barron pressed the issue by asking Kleinbord if the government could ban all noncitizens from owning guns, even ones who are here legally, since they also owe a primary allegiance to a foreign country.

Kleinbord was notably uncomfortable fielding the question and finally said that “our position might not be as strong” with legal U.S. residents.

“Is a person who is here unlawfully categorically less loyal than someone who is here legally but has no intention of becoming a citizen?” Barron asked.

Kleinbord shifted slightly and said the key issue is that immigrants here illegally, as was true of slaves, are not considered “part of the political community.”

Barron did suggest that there was a policy argument in favor of the law. “If I jaywalked this morning, that’s not a big concern. My having a weapon doesn’t seem like something people should be alarmed by.” But being caught without proper documents “has dramatic consequences, so there’s an incentive not to be found, which might lead one to be concerned about their having a weapon.”

But Drake replied that that’s true of many other situations, and “there are lots of reasons why ordinary Americans might not want an encounter with law enforcement.”

She also said that Osorio entered the country as a child and that while he remained unlawfully, that was a mere civil violation.

“If violating any law is enough, then the Second Amendment wouldn’t apply to a huge number of Americans,” she said.

Kayatta asked, “Couldn’t you assume that such a person has a great incentive to comply with the laws so as not to get caught?”

Barron and Kayatta were appointed by Barack Obama. U.S. Circuit Judge Jeffrey Howard, a George W. Bush appointee, rounded out the panel.

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Non-citizens here legally.

There is a solution, if you move to the US then you need to become a US citizen.

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Not a citizen?

The constitution doesn’t apply to you, not sorry.

This isn’t the United States of the world!

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So, I’ve been reading about “resident aliens” being arrested then sent “home” for crimes committed 10 years or so ago.

I don’t have any sympathy for those.

They never acquired naturalization, which IIRC only requires five years of residency, and allowed themselves to be subject to laws concerning green card holders.

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Love that show!

Was a bit disappointed in the closure though.

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My concern is that if they, the court, decide that the 2A does apply to anyone who is in the U.S., more specifically to those here illegally, where then is the line?

What if we get another administration like the prior who ignores the border laws, allows millions more un-vetted illegal aliens in, who are now, hypothetically, within their right to possess firearms? What would stop those illegal immigrants from bringing a war to our soil?

Yes, we have our military as well as legally armed citizens, but is that a scenario we want to risk allowing to become a reality? An “army” of undocumented immigrants carrying undocumented weapons throughout our country? Are we even a country at that point?

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Yes, but those questions are based on the premise that 18 U.S.C. 922 g(5) is consistent with the Constitution, specifically the 2nd Amendment. In this case, they are, in part, questioning that. If they rule that the 2A does apply to illegal aliens, that question would become irrelevant.

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Agreed, keep in mind that California hands out drivers licenses to immigrants that are in the country illegally.

4473 basically works on the honor system.

If the courts ruled 2A applied to illegal immigrants then they would need to change the form to reflect that.

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Keep in mind illegal aliens don’t have the right to break the law even if they somehow do get guns. Hope this helps.

They’re breaking the law every second of every day that they are here.

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Hence 2A should not apply to them and they would be lying on a federal form.

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You’re preaching to the choir.

The main argument I see is that you need a valid government ID, usually a driver’s license and proof of residency, to purchase a firearm from an FFL. An illegal would not have a valid driver’s license, under the current Real ID system. I know some states have given driver’s licenses to illegals, but that is sheer lunacy and corruption of the system they are trying to thwart.

If you are going to give them protection under the 2A, they would need some method of being able to purchase from an FFL. I would argue then that states that bar 18-20 years the right to puchase and/or possess certain arms would need their laws overturned for a similar reason. This is pure non-sense. Are we going to allow tourists to purchase firearms, too? That is also illegal.

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Bottom line, The RTKBA is the RTKBA whether it is legal or not.

If you came home one afternoon/ evening and found that a person/family had broke into your home and decided to stay, what rights should they have?

This is the exact same thing, on a larger (national) scale.

No rights, full stop. Courts be damned.

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Human rights.
Human rights are inherent, universal rights belonging to every person simply for being human, while constitutional rights are specific rights granted by a country’s constitution to its citizens, often reflecting and enforcing certain human rights within that legal jurisdiction. The key difference is their source and scope: human rights are universal and inherent, not granted by any authority, whereas constitutional rights are legally established and limited to a specific nation.

So all the Chinese need to do is send unarmed troops into our country and we have no right to stop them from arming up?

I mean it’s a human right isn’t it?

:roll_eyes::man_shrugging:

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I’m all about the second amendment!

However the constitution of the United States only applies to its citizens.

Just because your feet are on a countries soil does not make you a citizen!

If you’re not a US citizen, you have no right to bear arms under the US 2A.

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