Apologies if this has been asked before. If I have a carry permit/cpl (whatever said state calls it) and my passenger in a car engages a threat, either specific or general, what legal implications do we face individually or shared? This hypothetical is of course assuming passenger is legally allowed to own a firearm and/or concealed carry permit they simply either don’t own a firearm and/or have a carry permit. Thank you
Hypothetical: I have a permit to carry my passenger doesn't and engages threat
Welcome to the Community.
Your question contains too many options… what is a case you are trying to solve?
1 . Check with your local Laws if you can legally possess loaded firearm in your car.
Assuming you are ok with above:
2 . If your passenger doesn’t have carry permit, he definitely cannot have his own loaded firearm in your car
3 . My guess is that he can use your gun in your car defending your and his life.
What @Jerzy said. Very much depends on your state and we could point you in a better direction
if we know where you are. And welcome.
Thank you for the welcome! I should’ve known the question would need more specifics, apologies again. I’m in Oregon. The scenario primarily centers around being in a vehicle with my significant other, but of course can expand to whomever is in the vehicle with me. I thought about this while watching some of USCCA’s videos which have given me a pretty clear idea of I should do, not do, de-escalation, avoidance, situational awareness etc but I’m not by myself 100% of the time. A good portion of that time is with my significant other so I feel it responsible to ask the community here for thoughts/guidance. The very first thing I can think of is, if I’m not able to defend us for whatever reason, even if we “reasonably” believe our lives are in danger, I’m not in “control” of the firearm be it concealed or not which sounds like a legal nightmare.
Welcome to the family brother @HeyT , glad you could join us.
That to me does not mean that the other person has your fiream. If you are carrying concealed, that other person should not be able to obtain control of your firearm. If you give your CC handgun to someone else, and that person commits a criminal act, you, too, will likely face similar criminal charges.
The first thing you need to do, as others stated, is learn the laws of your state. You can only legally do what the law allows. Your “what ifs” need to be based on what is legal.
Rational thought is our friend. Emotions will get one in trouble. Situational Awareness will help keep you safe by being aware and avoiding situations that your “gut” tells you to avoid.
We are not heroes, we are not here to save the world. We do not engage in conflicts of any kind, unless they are unavoidable. Situational Awareness will provide you, the vast amount of time, the ability to avoid situations that might result in negative outcomes. The best fight to be in is one you avoid - you win those 100% of the time without risk of injury to yourself or anyone else.
We are responsible for any actions that we have control over. My CC firearm is mine. I would never indiscriminately give my firearm to my wife, nor anyone else. It would have to be an impossibly rare eventuality - as self-defense itself is very uncommon to begin with - that I would not even begin to speculate when that would be. However, if all the incredible “what ifs” occurred, and I needed someone else to use my firearm in self-defense, the same caveat would apply, as it does to us - only to be used when a reasonable person would believe that one is most likely to suffer gross bodily harm or death.
It is very important for you to learn everything you can about criminal and firearm law. The USCCA can help with that. The USCCA also has a large volume of videos and other information on Situtational Awareness and self-defense.
The more you train your mind to be aware, the more you will see what most people are oblivious to. You will also see how most people live in what we here call Condition White, where they are only aware of themselves. I believe there have been at least several times in my life that Situational Awareness has kept me and my family safe by avoiding the situation.
I didn’t go digging through the list of laws, but don’t some states have specific laws about firearms in moving vehicles (i.e. drive-by shooting)?
There aee two things to be considered.
1 . If your local Laws treat your car as your dwelling you can possess the firearm the same way as at home
2 . If your passenger can legally operate firearms and you are able to testify he used your (and only your) firearm within vehicle premises with your permission, you both should be good.
I was in similar, but different situation, when still having no permit to possess firearms.
I was working overnights at my Customer’s building and he gave me permission to use his two handguns within the building in case I had to.
But as always, please don’t rely on our posts and check with local attorney.
USCCA organizes meetings with local criminal attorneys. You can try attend and ask this question.
And you were within the law to do so. That is why in my post, I made it clear that one needed to know the law and act in a legal manner. There are some exceptions to this, that judges have ruled as justified, but I was not going into that “grey” area. The law, rational thought, what a reasonable person would do in the same situation, Situational Awareness, including avoidance, and other self-defense techniques, such de-escalation, avoiding conflict, etc., are the most likely things we need to use to stay safe and stay within the law. We neither want to be alive, but imprisoned nor lawful, but dead.
Thank you all for the input, the content and engagement of these forums is fantastic. Patiently waiting a response from the sheriffs office. In regards to a handgun in the vehicle, the law(s) are pretty straight forward, without the chl it’s unlawful to knowingly conceal a loaded handgun/have immediate access to it. This doesn’t address me having one and my gf or passenger not having one. She knows it’s concealed and will also have immediate access. Oregon is incredibly slow at issuing licenses (my county at least) so there exists a natural timeline gap of months before she gets hers.
Welcome to the Community @HeyT. We are glad to have you here.
I am not a lawyer, I don’t play one on tv, and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
That said, the driver of the car is usually considered responsible for everything in the car.
Personally, I would start with enabling your spouse/significant other to acquire their own carry license, whether or not they currently intend to ever make use of it.
Unless the local Law says otherwise… there is no room for considerations… it’s better to be sure about it before it’s too late.
Welcome to the family @HeyT and you are in the right place at the right time.
As everyone has stated, laws differ from state to state, and I think the scenario in general could be a massive gray area. Suppose the following. I’m out driving with my wife, I have a CCP, she does not. I have my weapon on me and we’re driving down the road. Let’s say I get forced off the road by a “bad guy” who manages to get a shot off and I’m incapacitated. As the guy approaches my vehicle, my wife obtains my gun from my holster and defends herself by shooting said “bad guy”. Now, in states where your car is an “extension” of your home it should be a pretty cut and dry self defense case. In states where this is not the case, provided my wife can legally own a weapon (which should actually be irrelevant as she, in this case, does not own said weapon) she should be allowed to defend herself against an assailant that has already shot one person, me, in the car. I understand this is somewhat irrelevant as the laws do not, unfortunately, often afford us the inalienable right to defend ourselves. Even if my wife couldn’t legally own a weapon, which again in this scenario she didn’t, she should still be allowed to defend her life by whatever means are currently available to her. A lot of “should” in there…unfortunately in many places the wife, if successful in defending her life, would likely end up in jail having to spend our life savings to try to get out.
There have been cases where a felon used a firearm owned by a household member in self-defense/defense of others, and was found not guilty by the judge ruling that self-defense made it justified. I did not want to get into that grey area in this discussion. You are correct, a prosecutor will do what they want, regardless of circumstances and the law. We are ultimately responsible for our actions and now-a-days should not be surprised to find ourselves defending our lives in court - even in clearcut self-defense scenarios.
Define engages…by that do you mean yelling at some asshole to actually shooting at them? My first response would be to hit the gas to get separation from the threat and then ask WTF are you doing? Also sounds like you would need to find a better quality of friend.
After seeing the Highland Parks shooters Dad get charged for Reckless Endangerment for something that happened 2 years ago. There is 0 chance of anyone getting to use my firearms.
You really need to know the law for your state. Constructive Possession laws will make it illegal for a convicted felon to live in a house where a firearm is present, even if the legal owner keeps it secured. Whether it’s on body or in a safe. The felon would be considered as being in Constructive Possession even if he had never touched the firearm.
Looks like Oregon has Constructive Possession.
Unlawful possession of firearms
From Oregon law:
4 (a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
I wouldn’t be allowing a convicted felon or other person’s
prohibited from possessing a firearm, ride with you if you are Concealed Carrying.
I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. I also did not sleep in a Holiday Inn Express.
This is not legal advice. But it could be a jumping off point while you talk to an Attorney who practices in Oregon.
Edit: changed be in to live in. (To satisfy 2 step process requirement)