@Nathan57 I agree, to me, the training some of us do that includes target selection/security, situational awareness and avoidance and for that matter skillful handling of a firearm are all part of the “Thought” process.
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Thinking always has been a part of self defense. No doubt. But thinking must be done in proper time. If you start thinking in wrong time - you may have no time for further actions.
@Nathan57 mentioned OODA loop. If you analyze it correctly - thinking (decide) is always before act. And decide, means your thinking doesn’t take a long time and shouldn’t negatively affect your actions.
You already decided what to do and then act. Never act and think same time.
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Thinking is good. We encourage thinking.
It’s the way the word was used In between aim and fire that’s the issue.
It takes a lot thinking to develop self-control so we don’t unholster unnecessarily.
Timing is everything.
Once we pull our weapon, we no longer ask,
“fight or flight?” We’re way past that.
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I respectfully disagree. Here’s my real-life story to back up my opinion.
Those who believe in make your mind up and shoot as quickly as possible have never been confronted with a real life scenario where taking a human life was at stake. They are mall ninjas, in my view.
On my last day as a cop, I was working the DUI team when a murder occurred in south end of the city that attracted most of the cops on duty in that area of town. My partner and I were driving around @ 1-2AM as far away from that playing with an experimental radar gun that could monitor speed while a cruiser was moving. Basically wasting time as this was my last friggin’ day before I left to go to grad school 4 states away.
Listening to the radio chatter, we were told that the murder suspects were 3 white males in a black 4WD pick-up truck who had killed the victim with a rifle.
As we drove south on a major street the radar gun started flashing 90 mph. Approaching us from the south (recall the murder took place south of us) was, you guessed it, a black 4WD pickup truck with 3 white males in the cab and rifle in a rear window rifle rack.
We gave chase and for the next 20 minutes or so engaged in a Hollywood style chase through people’s yards and fields. The truck rammed us a couple times. There was no back up as most of the department was looking at the dead body at the murder scene some distance away from our high speed chase.
We finally cornered the truck in a cul-de-sac where it t-boned up and the right fender fell off our car. The truck backed up and I looked over to see my partner trying to start our dead cruiser if the truck took off. I literally had to kick open the passenger side of the cruiser door and got out, gun draw and stood directly in front of the truck, maybe 7-8’ from the passengers. I aimed at the driver’s head.
I was really, really excited by then, but decided if there was any movement forward I would kill the driver. The hammer on my revolver was starting rearward as I worked that long, heavy double action on my S&W Model 19 357. I was literally staged to kill a murderer on my last day on the job.
The occupants of the truck then simultaneous threw their hands in the air and gave up. We dragged them out of the truck, handcuffed them jammed them into the back of our dead cruiser and waited for other cops to show up.
Turns out that the guys we arrested had nothing to do with the murder. They were just underaged kids who had taken their Dad’s pickup and ran from us because they were scared and did not want to get in trouble.
If I had done what all the mall ninja’s recommend – shoot first, ask questions later, 'cause speed is key to survival in the world of guns – I would have killed somebody’s child with a bullet to the brain. That family’s life would have been altered forever, as would mine. I thank God for that long heavy double action trigger pull that forced me to slow down and think before acting.
Think before you shoot is the life lesson I took from that encounter.
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I can’t speak from experience when it comes to having to draw a firearm. My experience with other life and limb threatening situations tells me that it is best to try to think through as many scenarios as possible beforehand so you can more quickly and easily apply and adapt those thoughts to whatever situation you end up in in the future. It seems to me that often times you have to trust and go with your gut and your pre thought and practiced responses. But you should always try to be ready to reassess and rethink when circumstances suddenly change.
In this particular case, already being held at gun point and then being marched off into the forest, I think my gut would agree with my pre-assessed scenarios that I need to act as soon as the opportunity presented itself.
It sounds to me like this guy had a lot of time to think about the situation. It seems he ignored his initial gut feeling that something was wrong and decided to stop and help anyways. Then after being held and robbed at gun point and then marched off into the forest he decided to give the an armed threat he felt the need to draw on the chance to respond to his draw. I don’t think I would have done that unless the thief’s response to my draw was dropping their weapon. Then hopefully I would recognize the change in threat level in time and pause to think about my next action.
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Firearms are the great equalizer. I hope I would see a woman pointing a firearm at me to be as threatening as a man doing that.
I might be a little more predisposed to stop to help the woman out in the first place. Though given one of the car jacking attempts on myself as well as one experienced by a coworker both had women involved I think I am past the chivalrous idea that women are less threatening than men.
Now if it is a young kid holding the firearm I could see that messing with my pre planned and in the moment decisions.
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I would like to help those that have broken down on the side of the road but with the turn this world has taken I would be putting myself in an unnecessary position of potential harm. 40 years ago was different.
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That’s sad.
Like saying anyone who votes for Trump or criticizes BLM is a racist.
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Thank you for your service. Thank you for sharing this account. I am glad you didn’t have to shoot anyone. You made a very strong point for your perspective and I appreciate hearing the rationale and context behind your comment.
Seems to me (I have no experience with a real life encounter like yours) that a ton of thinking needs to happen before one makes the decision to carry a gun, as well as throughout the duration of any kind of lethal encounter.
It also seems to me that there are different types of thinking and different things to think about-and different speeds with which we have to do our thinking.
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I don’t stop if I have my family with me. Also, with the advent of cell phones, I think the stop and help dynamic has changed some.
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Agree 100% I also used to stop and help stranded motorist , but today’s world is different than the days of my youth. Today I’m more likely to pull over down the road aways and call for help, and hopefully monitor the situation until help arrives. I can’t help but think, what if it was my daughter that broke down and nobody cared for her safety. That’s why I would wait at a hopefully safe distance away and keep watch. head on a swivel of course.
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Apples and oranges.
In the story that inspired this exchange, Someone KNOWN to have a weapon was marching a couple into the forest to their doom.
In your story, incomplete information and a speeding truck prompted a response,
I take offense to your “mall ninja” reference by the way.
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I know, Right? Kinda like “If you aren’t a X-Cop or X-Delta or X-SF or X-Marine or X-Grunt or X-Combat Veteran you should not be armed”?
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I was waiting for others to response to @Mark697 post because I didn’t want to be impolite.
Seems I wasn’t wrong with my first thought - Police work and how they act is completely different. The actions described had nothing to do with this discussion.
It is not about “shoot-not-shoot” decision. It is about saving your own or loved one life in the situation you are gun pointed and you know it’s not gonna end happily for you.
Also being civilian - the thinking is not the same as LEO’s thinking or Military thinking. You cannot compare those.
And I’m gonna politely disregard “mall ninja” term… it came from GlockTalk forum… so doesn’t apply to me. 
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Given my personal experience with car jacking attempts I usually don’t even consider stopping for someone who is on a main road in an area with cell reception where LEOs are likely to be passing by on a regular basis. But I also do a fair amount of work on roads where almost no one else ever drives and the cell reception is often non existent. Finding someone in those conditions increases the risks significantly. Both for them not getting any help if I don’t provide it and myself being completely isolated from help if they are setting a trap.
I keep spare water bottles and snacks in my vehicle in an easy to reach location that I can toss out the window if I have any kind of bad vibes from the situation. I can then drive to a place with reception and report their location to authorities.
I also have one of those small lithium battery jump starters both to get myself out of those middle of nowhere situations when my battery dies but it also allows me to jump other peoples vehicles without placing myself and my vehicle in a situation where I can’t make a quick get away.
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I live in Alabama and remember this case well. Hider was living in the woods with her lesbian lover and her 6 year old son. When the police approached the campsite, the lover yelled at the 6 year old to go get the gun and the 6 year old came running out of the woods with a shotgun. Real winners these two were.
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If someone is pointing and gun at you while committing a crime against you, it is no longer human. It is just a predator that must be stopped.
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If you’re going to be doing any pausing for contemplation, it’s before draw. Certainly before aim.
You never point a gun at anything that you don’t intend to shoot.
If you intend to shoot someone, you better have given that a thought already.
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Yeah… once you draw the gun you have already made a conscious decision to put the projectile(s) in somebody’s body.
Sometimes they say: If you draw the gun you’d better be ready to shoot.
It this particular case I would use this:
Never use your firearm to intimidate another.
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Good ending to a bad situation, but apples to oranges.
Non LEO folks don’t go chasing criminals. We don’t point guns at people to get them to get out of a vehicle. We’d go to jail for that.
This is about self defense when you’ve been attacked and are responding. And in this case is already a deadly threat to you. By then the threat must be stopped or you will die. That’s not the time for second thoughts.
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