Carry in populated areas, specifically concerts

Regional Conversations Eastern - North
88

IF properly written. IF passed. And IF the anti 2A States don’t find ways to keep ignoring, blocking or making it irrelevant for decades to come. Then it could right a lot of wrongs. But those are some really big IFs.

I like @Enzo_T ’s first clause. But the second clause leaves a lot of room for anti 2A States to render the first one virtually useless by passing more hurdles to everyone’s right to carry.

Even if a decent National Reciprocity bill somehow gets passed the battle will just be beginning with many more court cases to come. Until the anti 2A politicians and their lawyers are
faced with some real, personal penalties for continually violating our 2A rights, they are just going to keep playing the wack a mole game with them as the moles and us endlessly having to swing away.

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90

If the reciprocity law was written in a way that unquestionably allowed out of state non resident licenses to be recognized then it could open the door to NY residents getting around NYs infringements on their rights.

I would take the way you wrote the law to mean that non resident licenses would be valid. But anti 2A lawyers would likely disagree and the legal battles would continue likely taking years to resolve.

Plus making States like NY recognize out of State licenses would likely only increase their efforts to keep everyone with a license from being able to carry in as many places as possible.

I would love to see the incoming DC politicians pass a solid National Reciprocity law that actually keeps people from loosing their self defense rights when they cross invisible lines. I just don’t have a lot of faith that even if they actually try to pass the law this time around that it won’t have all sorts of limiting qualifications thrown in to try and make it more palatable to the pretend pro 2A DC critters.

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92

I just hope to still be alive when they finally get around to it.

Though given how slowly the wheels of justice turn and how much they waffle with the political tides I doubt this stuff will ever get completely sorted out.

But I am certainly not against National Reciprocity if the bill doesn’t get all chocked full of unnecessary language. I especially don’t want to see a bunch compromises thrown in that trade away other rights and protections in return for the reciprocity.

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93

You drive on private property all the time without permission every time you go to the gun store the grocery store parking lot…etc etc.
You can even pull into somebody’s driveway…

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95

ehh, not really, not generally.

“Entering private property” is a really broad term, and many examples of entering private property, even without permission, do not justify lethal force/being shot (inference from “lead poisoning”)

Lethal force is almost exclusively reserved for self defense vs stuff defense. Have to differentiate between, say, the girl scout walking across your front lawn from the sidewalk to the front door to sell you cookies uninvited at 3PM, and the hooded and masked 19 year old with a gun kicking in your back door at 3AM

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99

Contrary to popular belief, door-to-door soliciting is “legal” in the United States, even on private property. The Supreme Court has upheld the constitutional right of traveling salespeople to conduct door-to-door soliciting, emphasizing their right to free speech for commercial purposes.

Unless you have a gate or your property is posted…no tressing passing . Fenced off.
Otherwise, you won’t be arresting or harassing any Girl Scouts today, just because by happenstance they should step on your precious property and knock on your door
More having anyone arrested for trick-or-treating.

Same goes for the traveling, roofers, satellite dishes, somebody trying to sell door-to-door for the local Elks club raffle, etc. etc. Girl Scouts were just a good example.

Or if somebody’s just walks through your backyard, I don’t understand how your life was threatened, or how you were threatened with great badly harm by this?

But I see now the goalpost have been moved to the discussion to entering into a private residence.

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100

Good explanation, I don’t thinking entering someone driveway to turn around is trespassing, if you just pull in and out to help with the u-turn, in reality the first section of the driveway is owner by DOT and the property starts at least 5 to 6 feet from the street.

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103

Man, that cookie looks delicious :yum:, now I want some myself.

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104

Maybe if youwe get on the same page with these offenses, everybody is throwing around.

Montana has some of the country strictest no trespassing laws

Criminal Trespassing:
Criminal trespassing occurs when a person unlawfully enters or remains on someone else’s property without permission. In Montana, criminal trespassing is further categorized into different degrees based on the severity of the offense.
The first degree of criminal trespassing involves knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on property while being armed with a weapon or causing damage to property. This offense is considered a felony and carries more severe penalties, including imprisonment and fines.

The second degree of criminal trespassing occurs when a person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully on property after receiving notice against entering or remaining. This offense is a misdemeanor and can result in imprisonment and fines.

The third degree of criminal trespassing involves knowingly entering or remaining unlawfully on property without permission, but without any aggravating factors. This offense is also a misdemeanor and carries lesser penalties compared to the higher degrees.

It is important to note that even if a person does not cause any harm or damage while trespassing, they can still be held legally accountable. Montana takes trespassing seriously to protect the rights of landowners and ensure public safety.

Civil Trespassing:
Civil trespassing, on the other hand, is a civil matter rather than a criminal offense. It occurs when a person enters or remains on someone else’s property without permission.

One crucial aspect of private property rights is the establishment of boundaries. Landowners are responsible for clearly marking their property boundaries to indicate the extent of their land.

Pay attention to here.

Landowners also have the right to use reasonable force to remove trespassers from their property. However, it is important to exercise caution and act within the bounds of the law when dealing with trespassers. Engaging in excessive force or causing harm to trespassers may result in legal consequences for the landowner.

While trespassing is generally considered an offense, there are certain defenses and exceptions that individuals can invoke under specific circumstances in Montana. These defenses provide a legal basis for challenging trespassing accusations or justifying entry onto another person’s property without permission.

Meanwhile, in Minnesota, the Leo,sheriff or the DNR is going to come out there and politely ask them to leave it will not be until they refuse to leave that Leo, is going write them a ticket

They will write a ticket if they have committed some property damage but otherwise they’re going to be Minnesota nice.

Regardless of what the law says, its just the way it is there

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105

Thanks.

I sometimes visit new recreational and state forests spots for the first time. Despite having GPS, I sometimes do find myself having to turn around. I normally try to wait for a safer street or store/business whose lot I can innocently turn around in. But sometimes such a space is miles away.

I hate to do it, but on occasion I’ve made my three point turn in someone’s driveway. I do so slowly, carefully, not to touch even a blade of grass. In gratitude.

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106

Forgive me for taking your post literally as written.

“Anyone entering private property without permission” is a really broad statement that covers a whole heck of a lot of situations.

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107

Unfortunately people have been shot for that. I’d be slightly nervous if I was a delivery driver using a personal vehicle these days. That giant brown Santa truck has its advantages I suppose

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108

‘Coconut Girl Scout’? Why that’s absolutely Fu----What? Pssst Pssst, Pssssssst! whisper whisper… Really? The Cookie’s? Oh, I thought he meant…er…um… Nevermind! :flushed:

YES!

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109

That is true in NC if they have entered your home without permission but that would probably come under burglary or unlawful entry laws. And, that does automatically allow for lethal force. The same applies if you are in your car. I haven’t heard of a case of being in the front yard but it is possible. If they are simply trespassing, meaning that they haven’t entered your home, they must receive notice that they are not allowed on your property. After that they can be lawfully arrested on any other trespass. Otherwise there would be a lot of salesmen, religious panderers, girl scouts selling cookies, or people that simply had the wrong address being put in a world of hurt. Entry into a dwelling is the danger zone, whether that be a tent, shed, home, or car that is occupied.

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111

We have a few on here that like to take to the extreme thinking they’ve made some kind of point. Regular thinking seems to too hard for them.

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112

From:

Index Utah Code
Title 76 Utah Criminal Code
Chapter 6 Offenses Against Property
Part 2 Burglary and Criminal Trespass
Section 206 Criminal trespass. (Effective 1/30/2024)
(2) An actor commits criminal trespass if, under circumstances not amounting to burglary as defined in Section 76-6-202, 76-6-203, or 76-6-204 or a violation of Section 76-10-2402 regarding commercial obstruction:
(a) the actor enters or remains unlawfully on or causes an unmanned aircraft to enter and remain unlawfully over property and:
(i) intends to cause annoyance or injury to any person or damage to any property, including the use of graffiti;
(ii) intends to commit any crime, other than theft or a felony; or
(iii) is reckless as to whether the actor’s or unmanned aircraft’s presence will cause fear for the safety of another;
(b) knowing the actor’s or unmanned aircraft’s entry or presence is unlawful, the actor enters or remains on or causes an unmanned aircraft to enter or remain unlawfully over property to which notice against entering is given by:
(i) personal communication to the actor by the owner or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner;
(ii) fencing or other enclosure obviously designed to exclude intruders; or
(iii) posting of signs reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;
(c) the actor enters a condominium unit in violation of Section 57-8-7(8); or
(d) the actor enters a sex-designated changing room in violation of Subsection 63G-31-302(3).
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113

Not to high jack the direction of the thread. But how would I/us/we EDC have stopped or limited the lose and injury of human life or severe injury as in the Christmas market driver going through a crowd of people? I don’t think there is much we could have done but afterwards we could return the favor to the murderous driver.

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114

One can only use your imagination if your situational awareness picked up on the eminent act of the speeding vehicle approaching anyone threatening ramming or crashing into one or more innocent people.

How you might intervene depends on specific circumstances, or scenarios available to you.

Are you in a vehicle, or on foot in a position to do anything the deflect, block, or stop that oncoming vehicle/driver, warn the crowd, alert police, etc.

Any actions available might be limited by time constraints of the situation’s dynamics.

Unless you are in a very substantial truck, blocking might be suicidal.

Ramming the on rushing vehicle off course from the side might not be fully effective, or eliminate all possible casualties.

Shooting the driver through an open window, or glass might be like ramming above, with unpredictable results.

It’s a crapshoot without guarantees.

And, that’s only if you see it coming.

If you have enough time to alert a nearby cop, maybe he can open fire with a better more effective weapon than you have.

Good luck with that one!

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115

By having an IFAK/first aid/trauma gear and some know-how to use it.

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116

I think @Nathan57 ’s idea of helping aid the victims after is the most likely option for a useful response.

But as @Frank261 pointed out, if you happen to be in an advantageous position you may be able to use your own vehicle to stop their progress. Using an everyday carry handgun would require some very lucky positioning and solid skills.

It is my understanding that shots fired through the front windshield from the outside, especially with high quality self defense rounds designed to go through auto glass, do not deflect off course very far in the distance it takes to go from the window to the driver. As long as you are not hitting the windshield at too much of an angle. That could lead to the bullet completely deflecting off of it and going who knows where. Being in a position to fire a pistol through the front windshield of a vehicle speeding at you without getting run over is very risky move. Firing at the side window at a speeding vehicle would also be a significant challenge. Especially if you don’t regularly practice shooting at moving targets

I have read that ahooting from inside your own vehicle through the front window is a different story, with the bullet deflecting significantly upwards by the time it gets to the front of the hood, even though that seems counter intuitive to me.

Getting out of the way so you can help the victims after and not be one of them is probably the best bet in most cases.

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